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Old 12-14-2011, 12:34 PM
 
Location: South Africa
5,563 posts, read 6,140,970 times
Reputation: 1785

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Quote:
Originally Posted by gospelsaves View Post
Well true. You might want to hurry up and edit it as soon as you can then because who knows at this point how many millions of people have read the same thing and came to the same conclusion. It is a popular site you know
Like I said you should have quit but seeing you are adamant, these kind Jewish folk have set you right on the misinformation you were given to believe was fact, I chimed in to tell them when it surfaced (approx 9 years ago) Benny Hinn was not the author as all he does is BS but it took root/flame and everyone believed/believes it.

Whoppers rebutted this with a careful (and polite) well presented post to explain it in the correct context and their own culture and language and offered links to good scholarship and you come back with Wiki?

Really?

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Old 12-14-2011, 12:37 PM
 
204 posts, read 461,068 times
Reputation: 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazzymom View Post
True and for that very reason I don't argue scripture with Christians. I speak from the view point of a Jewish person. I speak to what I know. But I also don't believe that non Jews need to be saved or that they are headed to hell as lost persons.

So I don't have any reason to argue. I just believe what I believe and you believe what you believe.

But for me what I have issues with is that Christians take a book that was written in Hebrew and was and is the Hebrew Scripture and then tell Jews what it means without any acceptance that even before Christianity existed we already had our understanding of our book.

Judaism, our sages and in the modern age we had a tradition and understanding of our books.
I'm not speaking for ALL Christians. And you obviously aren't speaking for ALL Jews because ....newsflash..... there are Jews who speak FLUENT Hebrew and read the exact same book you did, and who now believe in Jesus. So obviously they came to a different conclusion than you did, reading the same text. There ware website for Jew's for Jesus. So you can't seak on behalf of an entire people, anymore than I can. I'm speaking for ME, and me alone.

So for the Jews who speak fluent Hebrew, and read the Torah and who are now believers in Jesus...what do you have to say to them? They speak the language, so can they have valid viewpoints? since aparently I can't?
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Old 12-14-2011, 12:41 PM
 
4,083 posts, read 4,291,302 times
Reputation: 806
Quote:
Originally Posted by gospelsaves View Post
I'm not speaking for ALL Christians. And you obviously aren't speaking for ALL Jews because ....newsflash..... there are Jews who speak FLUENT Hebrew and read the exact same book you did, and who now believe in Jesus. So obviously they came to a different conclusion than you did, reading the same text. There ware website for Jew's for Jesus. So you can't seak on behalf of an entire people, anymore than I can. I'm speaking for ME, and me alone.

So for the Jews who speak fluent Hebrew, and read the Torah and who are now believers in Jesus...what do you have to say to them? They speak the language, so can they have valid viewpoints? since aparently I can't?

Those Jews have fallen into the trap of Christianity. Hopefully one day they will return to the Jewish people.

There are also many Jews who are not schooled in the Torah, Hebrew or Judaism and they grew up in places where their Jewishness was hidden or it was not safe to be Jewish.

They fall victim to the Messianic Jews who tell them they can be Jewish and Christian. The Jews for Jesus tell Jews they can be "completed" Jews.

These groups target Jews.

What I would tell those Jews is that they have been misled.
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Old 12-14-2011, 12:49 PM
 
204 posts, read 461,068 times
Reputation: 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazzymom View Post
Those Jews have fallen into the trap of Christianity. Hopefully one day they will return to the Jewish people.

There are also many Jews who are not schooled in the Torah, Hebrew or Judaism and they grew up in places where their Jewishness was hidden or it was not safe to be Jewish.

They fall victim to the Messianic Jews who tell them they can be Jewish and Christian. The Jews for Jesus tell Jews they can be "completed" Jews.

These groups target Jews.

What I would tell those Jews is that they have been misled.
Ohhh so now it's "they were not taught the correct translations of the Torah like I was!" uh huh....right.

You telling me every FLUENT Hebrew speaking , TORAH reading Jew that believes in Jesus (cuz they came some different conclusion than you guys did)MUST just be misinformed and not have been taught correct translation...and they are just all led astray. uh - huh...sure .....sure!

Rabbi's who now believe in Jesus. Just all gone the other way and they can have no valid point whatsoever cuz those pesky Christians must have gotten to them. ...uh huh
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Old 12-14-2011, 01:17 PM
 
3,488 posts, read 3,141,768 times
Reputation: 738
Gospelsaves - I encouraged you to do further research on the subject, rather than relying on the opinion and interpretation of one scholar - who you still haven't named. Nobody is forbidding you from engaging in discussion - you just don't like the fact that nobody here is agreeing with your "scholars" opinion. While knowing the language IS crucial to understanding, you can still learn some things from the work of reputable scholars, which is why I suggested the Coogan book, and various commentaries written by scholars who have spent their entire professional lives working with their material. There resources available to those who are unwilling (lazy?) to spend a little time learning how to do good, sound exegesis, using well-grounded hermeneutical principles.

I tried to make this clear, and also provided places to start. I study Akkadian, Ugaritic, Hebrew and some of the lesser well-known Semitic languages. I even make my own cuneiform tablets, and sometimes sell personalized ones, in an attempt to help trace the various stages in which the Afro-Asiatic languages have evolved. Biblical Hebrew, even within the Bible, underwent changes over the thousnd yer period in which it ws compiled - and this can be seen by students in their studies. Words chnged meanings from books to books, even, much like the chnges one can detect in English from Shakesperean English to moder forms, and ll the variations present today.


What is troubling is that evidence is being presented against your borrowed theory, and your unable to counter any of it convincly, because the theory is not yours in the first place. You may think that the requiremnt of being educted in Semitic languges is unfair, but its just a fact of life.
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Old 12-14-2011, 01:54 PM
 
3,687 posts, read 3,111,332 times
Reputation: 1135
Quote:
You telling me every FLUENT Hebrew speaking , TORAH reading Jew that believes in Jesus (cuz they came some different conclusion than you guys did)MUST just be misinformed and not have been taught correct translation...and they are just all led astray. uh - huh...sure .....sure!

Rabbi's who now believe in Jesus. Just all gone the other way and they can have no valid point whatsoever cuz those pesky Christians must have gotten to them. ...uh huh
gospelsaves, Jazzymom is 100% correct. These "Jews" you refer to who believe in Jesus, are no longer Jewish (if they ever were). It is impossible to be Jewish and believe in Jesus. The Rambam's 13 Principles of Jewish Faith, written in the 14th century, outline the basic belief requirements to be considered Jewish. Note the bolded ones below, which are anti-thetical to a Jew believeing in Jesus:

Quote:
1. I believe with perfect faith that G-d is the Creator and Ruler of all things. He alone has made, does make, and will make all things.

2. I believe with perfect faith that G-d is One. There is no unity that is in any way like His. He alone is our G-d He was, He is, and He will be.

3. I believe with perfect faith that G-d does not have a body. physical concepts do not apply to Him. There is nothing whatsoever that resembles Him at all.

4. I believe with perfect faith that G-d is first and last.

5. I believe with perfect faith that it is only proper to pray to G-d. One may not pray to anyone or anything else.

6. I believe with perfect faith that all the words of the prophets are true.

7. I believe with perfect faith that the prophecy of Moses is absolutely true. He was the chief of all prophets, both before and after Him.

8. I believe with perfect faith that the entire Torah that we now have is that which was given to Moses.

9. I believe with perfect faith that this Torah will not be changed, and that there will never be another given by G-d.

10. I believe with perfect faith that G-d knows all of man's deeds and thoughts. It is thus written (Psalm 33:15), "He has molded every heart together, He understands what each one does."

11. I believe with perfect faith that G-d rewards those who keep His commandments, and punishes those who transgress Him.

12. I believe with perfect faith in the coming of the Messiah. How long it takes, I will await His coming every day.

13. I believe with perfect faith that the dead will be brought back to life when G-d wills it to happen.
If a Jew cannot accept all 13 of these priciples in it's entirety, than that Jew is longer Jewish. And ALL Jews agree upon these (although we famously agree on very little else).
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Old 12-14-2011, 01:59 PM
 
204 posts, read 461,068 times
Reputation: 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by whoppers View Post
Gospelsaves - I encouraged you to do further research on the subject, rather than relying on the opinion and interpretation of one scholar - who you still haven't named. Nobody is forbidding you from engaging in discussion - you just don't like the fact that nobody here is agreeing with your "scholars" opinion. While knowing the language IS crucial to understanding, you can still learn some things from the work of reputable scholars, which is why I suggested the Coogan book, and various commentaries written by scholars who have spent their entire professional lives working with their material. There resources available to those who are unwilling (lazy?) to spend a little time learning how to do good, sound exegesis, using well-grounded hermeneutical principles.

I tried to make this clear, and also provided places to start. I study Akkadian, Ugaritic, Hebrew and some of the lesser well-known Semitic languages. I even make my own cuneiform tablets, and sometimes sell personalized ones, in an attempt to help trace the various stages in which the Afro-Asiatic languages have evolved. Biblical Hebrew, even within the Bible, underwent changes over the thousnd yer period in which it ws compiled - and this can be seen by students in their studies. Words chnged meanings from books to books, even, much like the chnges one can detect in English from Shakesperean English to moder forms, and ll the variations present today.


What is troubling is that evidence is being presented against your borrowed theory, and your unable to counter any of it convincly, because the theory is not yours in the first place. You may think that the requiremnt of being educted in Semitic languges is unfair, but its just a fact of life.
And my reply to you will remain (since I can't have an opinion) those FLUENT Hebrew speaking , TORAH reading Jews....who have just as many letters behind their name as some of you do in this forum....who believe in Jesus...what about them? And don't say those people do not exist because I know one.

My friend Seth is a Jew who has more letters behind his name than probably you or I combined. Who speaks Hebrew fluently, and who has read the Torah, Bible, Koran and who knows what else... and can go head to toe with anyone on the semantics of Hebrew. I know becasue I've heard him. I'm not saying I can, but I know people who can. What about these Jewish people who believe in Jesus.

You telling me they are not smart enough to have done reseach themselves on the topic and they must just be blindly following us Christians?

Supprise there are some of YOUR own people who are just as smart as you are who can speak Hebrew just as fluently as you can...and who have some to a different conclusion than you. Can they have a VALID point?
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Old 12-14-2011, 02:04 PM
 
204 posts, read 461,068 times
Reputation: 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by whoppers View Post
Gospelsaves - I encouraged you to do further research on the subject, rather than relying on the opinion and interpretation of one scholar - who you still haven't named. Nobody is forbidding you from engaging in discussion - you just don't like the fact that nobody here is agreeing with your "scholars" opinion. While knowing the language IS crucial to understanding, you can still learn some things from the work of reputable scholars, which is why I suggested the Coogan book, and various commentaries written by scholars who have spent their entire professional lives working with their material. There resources available to those who are unwilling (lazy?) to spend a little time learning how to do good, sound exegesis, using well-grounded hermeneutical principles.

I tried to make this clear, and also provided places to start. I study Akkadian, Ugaritic, Hebrew and some of the lesser well-known Semitic languages. I even make my own cuneiform tablets, and sometimes sell personalized ones, in an attempt to help trace the various stages in which the Afro-Asiatic languages have evolved. Biblical Hebrew, even within the Bible, underwent changes over the thousnd yer period in which it ws compiled - and this can be seen by students in their studies. Words chnged meanings from books to books, even, much like the chnges one can detect in English from Shakesperean English to moder forms, and ll the variations present today.


What is troubling is that evidence is being presented against your borrowed theory, and your unable to counter any of it convincly, because the theory is not yours in the first place. You may think that the requiremnt of being educted in Semitic languges is unfair, but its just a fact of life.
And now you can't be Jewish if you believe in Jesus. Now somebody is just going to take away your ethnicity! No matter how many generations a person can trace their line to...doesn't matter. Doesn't matter if they had family in the holocaust...irrelevant right? If they believe in Jesus they are not a Jew that is what your saying? Forget their years upon years of Jewish heritage.
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Old 12-14-2011, 02:07 PM
 
3,687 posts, read 3,111,332 times
Reputation: 1135
Quote:
TORAH reading Jews....who have just as many letters behind their name as some of you do in this forum....who believe in Jesus...what about them?
Same reply as above. These are not Jews. You are referencing Chrstians who believe in Jesus, which isn't so shocking, since there a billion of them in the world.

To be more specific, any Jew who can read Hebrew fluently and comes to the conclusion that Jesus is some sort of man/god, has not been learning with a reputable teacher. It means he has been learning from a teacher who is twisting the words to achieve some sort of nefarious agenda.

Let me make a bold statement: there is not one single Jew on the Earth who believes in Jesus. Zero! And if somebody claims to be Jewish and believe in Jesus, there's a very specific term to describe that person: a Chrstian.
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Old 12-14-2011, 02:08 PM
 
204 posts, read 461,068 times
Reputation: 134
Quote:
Originally Posted by theflipflop View Post
gospelsaves, Jazzymom is 100% correct. These "Jews" you refer to who believe in Jesus, are no longer Jewish (if they ever were). It is impossible to be Jewish and believe in Jesus. The Rambam's 13 Principles of Jewish Faith, written in the 14th century, outline the basic belief requirements to be considered Jewish. Note the bolded ones below, which are anti-thetical to a Jew believeing in Jesus:



If a Jew cannot accept all 13 of these priciples in it's entirety, than that Jew is longer Jewish. And ALL Jews agree upon these (although we famously agree on very little else).
I'm going to have to tell my friend Seth he is no longer a Jew because he believes in Jesus. Man his family is going to be UPSET when they find that out! I'm pretty sure somebody is his family was in the holocaust, and I know for a fact that he celebrates Jewish holidays. And his family line of year upon years of Jewish history....all gone.

I may have to get you to talk to him and explain how all that vanished when he decided to follow Jesus, cuz I'm sure he is going to have a few questions for you.
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