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Old 12-16-2011, 07:32 AM
 
4,083 posts, read 2,445,599 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by -Lucy- View Post
Did you watch the videoclip? What's your thought?

LaurenceDad is not a moron. He shows proof that there are thousands of 'Jews for Jesus' who speak Hebrew, observe the sabbath, go to synagogue, observe Jewish law etc. but believe that Christ' is the messiah. It could be confusing and sounds wiered for some other Jews, but it's true.
God Bless those Jews! They know the truth.... Hopefully more people accept Christ, because that group is increasing everywhere.

They are not Jews anymore. They will not be seen as Jewish unless they return to the Jewish people. Teshuva to return. To renounce another religion and return to the Jewish people.

That is the only way they will ever be seen as Jews by the Jewish people.

It does not matter what non Jews think.

They have committed apostasy and turned their backs on their religion and people and are no more then Christians.
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Old 12-16-2011, 07:37 AM
Status: "This is the cat. the human I used to own has been fired" (set 14 days ago)
 
Location: Marion, North Dakota
10,120 posts, read 3,734,052 times
Reputation: 3991
Quote:
Originally Posted by -Lucy- View Post
Did you watch the videoclip? What's your thought?

LaurenceDad is not a moron. He shows proof that there are thousands of 'Jews for Jesus' who speak Hebrew, observe the sabbath, go to synagogue, observe Jewish law etc. but believe that Christ' is the messiah. It could be confusing and sounds wiered for some other Jews, but it's true.
God Bless those Jews! They know the truth.... Hopefully more people accept Christ, because that group is increasing everywhere.

what would you call a Christian who believes the Qur'an is true, believes the trinity is false. He goes to church regularly, comes from a Christian family and was baptized. Would that make that person a member of "Christians for Islam" ?

Does the term "Christians for Islam" even make sense?

Neither do the terms "Messianic Muslims" or "Messianic Jews"

The 3 are oxymorons and an impossibility.
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Old 12-16-2011, 07:40 AM
 
9,343 posts, read 16,154,764 times
Reputation: 4205
Quote:
Originally Posted by -Lucy- View Post
What's your thought?
As soon as a Jew commits the great sin of idolatry by worshiping Jesus of Nazareth, thereby violating the Second Mitzvah prohibition against the worship of other than the one, true and indivisible G-d, they have separated themselves from the Jewish people and they are no longer a Jew, no matter which of the other 612 Mitzvot (Commandments) they continue to practice.

As a Jew, I can violate all but 3 of the 613 Mitzvot (Commandments) in order to save a life. The 3 inviolate Mitzvot (Commandments) are the prohibition against murder, the prohibition against adultery/incest and the prohibition against idolatry. Suicide is a sin; however, this is waived if suicide is necessary so as not to violate any of these 3 inviolate Mitzvot (Commandments).
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Old 12-16-2011, 08:38 AM
 
2,954 posts, read 1,130,621 times
Reputation: 702
Quote:
Originally Posted by -Lucy- View Post
Did you watch the videoclip? What's your thought?

LaurenceDad is not a moron. He shows proof that there are thousands of 'Jews for Jesus' who speak Hebrew, observe the sabbath, go to synagogue, observe Jewish law etc. but believe that Christ' is the messiah. It could be confusing and sounds wiered for some other Jews, but it's true.
God Bless those Jews! They know the truth.... Hopefully more people accept Christ, because that group is increasing everywhere.
Lucy, first you should google the word "oxymoron," and you'll see Walter was not calling LaurenceDad a moron. Sorry, how many degrees did you say you had?

Second, I'm puzzled why you cannot understand the fact that Jews do not accept these missionary Chrstians (you call them Jews for Jesus, which as Walter noted is an oxymoron) to be Jews, when they ARE NOT JEWS.

You could observe the Sabbath, wear a yarmulke, wear tzitzis, eat 100% glatt kosher, and guess what, if you believe in yuske, you are NOT A YID.

That video is a henious example of the lengths these missionary gentiles will go to in order to convert Jews and cut them off from Olam Haba. Terribly sad - and you're just foolish enough (LawrenceDad, too) to be fooled by that nonsense.

There is not a single Jew anywhere in th world, now or ever, who believes in yuske and is still considered by the Torah to be a Jew. If the Chrstian bible says their jewish, then that's an internal matter for you Chrstians. I can say my pet dog is the president of the United States, but at the end of the day, he's just my dog.
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Old 12-16-2011, 08:53 AM
 
Location: One Nation Under God - USA
87 posts, read 50,603 times
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Did you guys know that a person is Christian ONLY if he/she is baptised.

I'm not Christian either because I was not baptised. However, I believe in Christ, accept him as the messiah. Jesus was a great person who taught humans excellent stuff.

Whether Jews agree or disagree, these 'Jews for Jesus' still consider them to be Jews. You cannot consider them Christians unless they are getting baptised.

BTW What's wrong with believe in Christ? You don't have to agree he's the messiah, but at least accept him that he was born, a great historic man who helped people. He's speeches were BEAUTIFUL.
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Old 12-16-2011, 08:55 AM
 
Location: Dallas, TX
30,939 posts, read 12,210,726 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by -Lucy- View Post
Did you guys know that a person is Christian ONLY if he/she is baptised.
Baptism existed before Christianity.
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Old 12-16-2011, 09:42 AM
 
4,083 posts, read 2,445,599 times
Reputation: 779
Quote:
Originally Posted by -Lucy- View Post
Did you guys know that a person is Christian ONLY if he/she is baptised.

I'm not Christian either because I was not baptised. However, I believe in Christ, accept him as the messiah. Jesus was a great person who taught humans excellent stuff.

Whether Jews agree or disagree, these 'Jews for Jesus' still consider them to be Jews. You cannot consider them Christians unless they are getting baptised.

BTW What's wrong with believe in Christ? You don't have to agree he's the messiah, but at least accept him that he was born, a great historic man who helped people. He's speeches were BEAUTIFUL.

Anyone who accepts Jesus as the messiah and G-d is a Christian. Jews who profess faith in Jesus are not Jews.

Jesus was a Jew who worshipped as a Jew, lived and died as a Jew. He had a Jewish following and in fact to follow him you needed to be Jewish. Those non Jews who wanted to be part of his group had to become Jewish first.

He was a teacher who wanted to reform what he saw as problems in his own religion, the Jewish religion.

He never left his religion in fact his movement was considered a group within Judaism until Paul and with Paul and his movement to do away with the law and circumcision. Paul sought to break the covenant and for that the division happened and from that time forward The Jewish followers of Jesus and the Gentile followers of Jesus went their separate ways and Pauline Christianity was born.

Water has always been central to Judaism. The mikvah is our sacred body of water. To become a Jew you go into the mikveh and rise out a Jew.

Christianity took that, it is not Christian but Jewish.
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Old 12-16-2011, 09:54 AM
 
2,954 posts, read 1,130,621 times
Reputation: 702
Quote:
Originally Posted by -Lucy- View Post
BTW What's wrong with believe in Christ? You don't have to agree he's the messiah, but at least accept him that he was born, a great historic man who helped people. He's speeches were BEAUTIFUL.
Lucy, when Jews think of Jesus, i think they think more of the followers of the religion Paul created, which includes a 2,000 year history of murdering Jews. Jesus himself, had a murderous personality.

Sorry, I know the segment below is crazy long, but if anybody has the time, I can back up my thoughts above with this:

Quote:
Chrstians like to present us with an idealized picture of Jsus the man, but a careful reading of the Gospels dispels this picture very quickly.

Let us look at a few examples.

One of the best known teachings of Jsus is


Quote:
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(Luke 6:29), If someone smites you on one cheek, turn the other cheek.
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This might have been a beautiful ideal, but Jsus himself did not live up to it. When one of the High Priest's officers struck him, Jsus did not turn the other cheek at all. Instead, the Gospel tells us that his response was


Quote:
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(John 13:23), if I spoke amiss, state it in evidence at my trial. If I spoke well, then why did you smite me?
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He did not meekly and quietly submit, as he himself is alleged to have preached.

Throughout history, it seems that the only one who ever turned the other cheek was the Jew.

In the Sermon on the Mount, Jsus instructed his followers


Quote:
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(Matthew 5:43) Love your enemies, bless those who curse you, and do good to those who hate you.
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This might have been a fine lesson if Jsus himself lived up to it. But when it came to his own enemies, Jsus declared


Quote:
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(Luke 19:27), Take my enemies, who would not have me rule over them, bring them here, and kill them before me.
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Jsus might have preached against vindictiveness, but he did not practice as he preached, when he said


Quote:
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(John 11:39), I come to the world for judgment. I may give sight to the sightless, but I will blind those who see.
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Some of us may have a picture of Jsus preaching love and peace, as when he said


Quote:
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(Matthew 5:22), Anyone who nurses anger against his brother must be brought to judgment. . . If he even sneers at him, he will have to answer for it in the fires of hell.
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The picture, however, changes very rapidly when Jsus himself is put to the test. We then find him declaring


Quote:
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(Matthew 10:34), Think not that I have come to send peace to the world. I come not to send peace, but the sword.
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Jsus subjected anyone who dared oppose him to the most awful abuse, curses and threats of dire punishment. When the Jews tried to defend their ancient faith, Jsus answered them by saying,


Quote:
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(Matthew 23:33), You snakes, you generation of vipers, how can you escape the damnation of hell?
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Jsus did not limit himself to his immediate opponents, such as the Rabbis and teachers. He spoke against all those who dared not believe in him, branding them as outcasts, subject to divine punishment. We thus hear his pronouncement


Quote:
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(John 3:36), He who believes in the Son has everlasting life. But he who does not believe in the Son shall not see life, but shall suffer the everlasting wrath of G-d.
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He may have preached love, but it was a very restricted love. He thus said


Quote:
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(John 3:5), I surely say to you: Unless a man is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the Kingdom of G-d.
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In contrast to this, the Rabbis, whom Jsus hated so much, did not place any such limitations on G-d's love. It was the Rabbis of the Talmud who made the statement


Quote:
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(Tosefta, Sanhedrin 13), The righteous of all nations have a share in the World to Come.
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They saw G-d's love as available to all people, and not only to Jews.

An even stronger statement can be found in our Midrashic literature, where a rabbi declares


Quote:
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(Tana DeBei Eliahu Rabbah 9), I call heaven and earth as witnesses: Any individual, whether gentile or Jew, man or woman, servant or maid, can bring the Divine Presence upon himself in accordance with his deeds.
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The Jewish attitude toward non-Jews is most clearly expressed in King Solomon's prayer, where he says


Quote:
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(I Kings 8:41-43), When a stranger, who is not of Your people Israel, but comes from a distant land . . . turns in prayer toward this Temple, then listen to his prayers.
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Jsus, however, was not so broad minded. When he sent out his twelve disciples, he charged them


Quote:
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(Matthew 10:5, 6), Do not take the road to gentile lands, and do not enter any Samaritan city. Go only to the lost sheep of Israel.
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The Rabbis who lived in Jsus' time taught


Quote:
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(Avos 4:3), Do not despise any man.
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They likewise declared

Quote:
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(Baba Kama 38a), Even a gentile who studies Torah is equal to a High Priest.
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These Rabbis saw G-d's salvation freely available to all men. Contrast this with the terrible sentence proclaimed by Jsus


Quote:
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(John 15:6), He who does not abide in me is thrown away like a withered branch. Such withered branches are gathered together, cast into the fire and burned.
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This terrible statement was later used by the Catholic Church to justify their practice of burning non-believers at the stake.

In the Sermon on the Mount, Jsus preached

Quote:
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(Matthew 5:43:44), You have been previously taught to love your neighbor and hate your enemy. But I say to you: Love your enemies and bless those who curse you.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Jsus may have said this, but the Gospels are aflame with his own words of hatred toward those who did not accept him. Time after time, he displays the same appetite for revenge as any other mortal.

One of the basic teachings of Judaism is


Quote:
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(Leviticus 18:19), You shall love your neighbor as yourself.
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This commandment is so important that Rabbi Akiva declared that it was the fundamental principle of the Torah. Even though this is openly stated in the Torah, written over a thousand years before Jsus' birth, many people still think of it as one of Jsus' teachings.

But even in explaining this commandment of love, Jsus was not above displaying his vindictiveness. The Gospel (Luke 19:29), records that he was asked, But who is my neighbor? Jsus replied with one of the best known parables in the Gospels:


A man traveling from Jerusalem to Jericho is attacked by robbers. They plunder and beat him, leaving him half dead by the roadside. A priest comes along and sees the injured man, but he promptly crosses the road to avoid him. A Levite then happens to pass by, and he also crosses the road to avoid him. Finally a Samaritan comes by and is touched by pity. He binds the stranger's wounds, carries him to a secure spot, and tenderly cares for him. Thus, the Samaritan becomes the perfect example of the good neighbor.

At first glance, this looks like a most beautiful story. But when we look beneath the surface, we see Jsus' vindictiveness only too clearly.

Let us carefully note the three persons who saw the unfortunate victim. They are a priest (Cohen), a Levite and a Samaritan. Anyone familiar with the three classes of Jews called to the Torah, knows that they are Cohen (priest), Levite and Israelite. We would therefore expect that after the Cohen and Levite passed up the victim, the story would tell us that the third person was an Israelite, an ordinary Jew.

Instead, however, Jsus substitutes a Samaritan, a member of a tribe who had been enemies with the Jews for almost five hundred years. This Samaritan then becomes the example of moral love. The Priests and Levites, who were the religious leaders of the Jews, were thus downgraded, while the hated Samaritan was praised. What Jsus is implying is that every Jew, even a religious leader, is incapable of even a simple act of mercy.

Even in his parable about love, Jsus was not above demonstrating his spite toward the Jewish leaders who rejected him. Good Samaritan is a byword among Chrstians to this very day. Many churches even bear the name, Church of the Good Samaritan. But Jsus' vindictiveness assured that there would never be a church with the name, Church of the Good Israelite.

Jsus was even able to be vindictive against a tree. When he found himself hungry, he was not able to restrain his too human emotions. The Gospel thus records


Quote:
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(Matthew 2 1:18, 19), In the morning, on his way to the city, Jsus felt hungry. Seeing a fig tree near the road, he went up to it, but found nothing on it but leaves. He said to the tree, `may you never bear fruit anymore.' The tree then withered and died.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


The Gospel of Mark (11:13) makes it plain that it was not even the season for figs.

Did this innocent tree deserve such cruel punishment? It was not even the season for figs, and the tree was merely fulfilling its nature. If Jsus merely wanted to show his miraculous powers, as the gospel seems to indicate, why did he not command the tree to bring forth fruit?

Indeed, the Talmud (Taanis 24a) brings a very similar incident, but with a very different ending. Rabbi Yosi's son once wanted to provide his father's field hands with food. All he could find was a fig tree, but it was not the season, and the tree was bare. He cried out,


Quote:
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Fig tree, fig tree, send forth your fruit so that my father's workers may eat.
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The Talmud tells us that the tree produced fruit before its time and the men were able to fill themselves.

If Jsus were truly capable of miracles, he could have done the same. Instead, he chose to display his vindictiveness.
A primary teaching of Judaism is expressed by the Psalmist many generations before Jsus. He declared


Quote:
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(Psalm 145:9), G-d is good to all, and his love extends over all His works. No distinction is made between Jew and gentile.
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Contrast this with the following event in Jsus' career


Quote:
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(Mark 7:25-27): A woman whose daughter was possessed by an unclean spirit heard of Jsus, and came in, falling at his feet. She was a Gentile, a Phoenician from Syria. She begged Jsus to drive out the spirit from her daughter. Jsus replied, `Let the children be satisfied first. It is not right to take the children's bread and cast it to the dogs.
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From the context, it is obvious that the children mentioned by Jsus refer to the Jews, while the dogs were the gentiles. These dogs must be satisfied with scraps from the table.

Now compare this narrow view with a teaching of the much maligned Pharisees (i.e. rabbis). They declare in the Talmud


Quote:
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(Gittin 61a), We are obliged to feed the gentile poor in exactly the same manner as we feed the Jewish poor.
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We can bring many such contrasts between Jewish and Chrstian ethics. In every case, the margin seems to be on the side of Judaism. Jsus may have taught many beautiful ideals, but unfortunately, he never seemed to be able to live up to them himself.

Apparently, it was difficult even for Chrst to be a Chrstian.
Why Jews Know Jsus was a false messiah in Counter-Missionary Forum Forum
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Old 12-16-2011, 09:59 AM
 
Location: The State Of California
5,737 posts, read 5,746,516 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazzymom View Post
They are not Jews anymore. They will not be seen as Jewish unless they return to the Jewish people. Teshuva to return. To renounce another religion and return to the Jewish people.

That is the only way they will ever be seen as Jews by the Jewish people.

It does not matter what non Jews think.

They have committed apostasy and turned their backs on their religion and people and are no more then Christians.
You and people like yourself are trying to punish JEWS that believe in Jesus The Christ so much that you just can't GET IT . JEWS that committ APOSTASY Do So Against A Religious Belief System AND NOT AGAINST THE BLOODLINE OF ABRAHAM and SARAH.
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Old 12-16-2011, 10:14 AM
 
2,954 posts, read 1,130,621 times
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Quote:
You and people like yourself are trying to punish JEWS that believe in Jesus
Incorrect. We desparately want to bring these Jews back to Judaism. They have commited suicide with their souls, but thankfully there's always time to do repentance.

I think of all Jews as my brothers and sisters. If my brother came to me and suddenly told he'd accepted Yuske as his savior, I wouldn't say to him: "I'm so glad you've found something nice and meaningful." No! I'd grab him by the ears and say, "what? How could you?"

No different than if my brother were to come to me and tell me he planned to commit suicide (G-d forbid). I wouldn't say how nice, I'd grab him by the ears..." You get the point.

Keep in mind, Jews are not telling Chrstians that they should become Jews because we are doing it right. Quite the contrary. We're not at all interested in Chrstians becoming Jews. You have your own perfectly valid route to Olam Haba. But where we take issue, is that if a Jew beleives in Yuske, then THAT former Jew HAS cut off his route to Olam Haba, and we will do whatever is possible to bring him back. And we'll be furious with the Chrstian who led him astray.
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