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Old 12-19-2011, 08:19 AM
 
3,679 posts, read 3,052,034 times
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You need to be a scholor in like 4 different academics to make any sense of things.
You're somewhat correct, godofzeus. The Jewish bible cannot be understood properly without a few requirements being satisfied:

1. It must be read in its native tongue (Hebrew). ALL translations are suspect and cannot be trusted.
2. It must be read and understood by using the benefit of the Oral law that was also given to Moses at Har Sinai. We study this oral law by means of the Talmud (mishnayos and gemara) to this very day. In fact, i sit in a 40-minute Talmud (gamara) class 6 mornings a week. I challenge any Chrstians to say they do the same (yet these same Chrstians claim to "know" the OT).
3. A jew must learn Oral law from an accomplished a scholarly rabbi, or from a parent who has spent a lifetime learning Oral law.

BTW, this is the reason no single Chrstian on this website is qualified to say a single thing about what they call OT. It is impossible for Chrstians to have a single valid thought on the Jewish Bible. They should stick to their own (of course, for the sake of interesting discussion, and to dispell the obvious slew of myths that persist, we do have these discussions with you).
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Old 12-19-2011, 10:56 AM
 
Location: Chambersburg PA
1,738 posts, read 1,665,010 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by -Lucy- View Post
Everybody must understand that the main reason between Judaism & Christianity is that Christians believe that Jesus is Son of God, our Lord & Saviour. Judaism does not believe in Christ', and are still waiting for messiah (the saviour).

Judaism has slightly stricter daily-life law for its people (usually orthodox do it), such as having kosher (Christians could eat anything), stricter sabbath (Christians could still work on Sundays), modesty clothes (religious Christians could wear anything).

So being religious Jew has much more rules than religious Christian.
Of course you don't speak for all Christians. as many Christians including the Amish, Mennonite and some Brethren are both painfully modest in their dress, and won't work on Sundays.
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Old 12-19-2011, 07:42 PM
 
37 posts, read 31,867 times
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What is so incredible about Far Eastern phylosophy is that they explain the phylosophy behind their creations. They tell you they use mythology to help teach. They tell you strait up their phylosophies on the afterlife and everything. No guesswork whatsoever. No killings in the name of God etc.. Then you have the Ot that is SORELY vague, and through it's vagueness can be interpreted as anti-Buddhism. It doesn't explain any phylosophy. You are left guessing after reading passages that conflict and/or just makes no sense. It's about a race of people who, I believe, were forced to commit genocide because of great evils out to kill and oppress them, and they did it because God told them to. The problem with this is if this stuff falls into the wrong hands, it can cause a lot of chaos in the world. There is not a Jew I know of who is out to commit genocide. THe problem is when the Jews become the victims of genocide, the OT ties their hands. For instance, they can't fight against the Koran for all it's horrible genocidal antisemitism. If they did try to stand up against it, they would then have to explain the "genocidal, woman and children killing, pro-Jewish" God of the OT. And most Jews I have argued with on line argue on the side of the Koran! Most Jews hate any Christian that even attempts to debunk a fals prophet's claims by using the NEW TESTAMENT! THe NT is a weapon against a prophesized antichrist false prophet. It has everything from the evidence stacked against him, to the prophecies and instruction in fighting against an oppressive false prophet. But the Jews most often fight on the side of Muhammad. So who is their God?
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Old 12-19-2011, 08:26 PM
 
4,083 posts, read 4,249,195 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Godofzeus View Post
What is so incredible about Far Eastern phylosophy is that they explain the phylosophy behind their creations. They tell you they use mythology to help teach. They tell you strait up their phylosophies on the afterlife and everything. No guesswork whatsoever. No killings in the name of God etc.. Then you have the Ot that is SORELY vague, and through it's vagueness can be interpreted as anti-Buddhism. It doesn't explain any phylosophy. You are left guessing after reading passages that conflict and/or just makes no sense. It's about a race of people who, I believe, were forced to commit genocide because of great evils out to kill and oppress them, and they did it because God told them to. The problem with this is if this stuff falls into the wrong hands, it can cause a lot of chaos in the world. There is not a Jew I know of who is out to commit genocide. THe problem is when the Jews become the victims of genocide, the OT ties their hands. For instance, they can't fight against the Koran for all it's horrible genocidal antisemitism. If they did try to stand up against it, they would then have to explain the "genocidal, woman and children killing, pro-Jewish" God of the OT. And most Jews I have argued with on line argue on the side of the Koran! Most Jews hate any Christian that even attempts to debunk a fals prophet's claims by using the NEW TESTAMENT! THe NT is a weapon against a prophesized antichrist false prophet. It has everything from the evidence stacked against him, to the prophecies and instruction in fighting against an oppressive false prophet. But the Jews most often fight on the side of Muhammad. So who is their God?

Ahhhhhh you area an expert on most Jews...... Glad to know that.....
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Old 12-19-2011, 08:57 PM
 
3,488 posts, read 3,096,428 times
Reputation: 738
Quote:
Originally Posted by theflipflop View Post
You're somewhat correct, godofzeus. The Jewish bible cannot be understood properly without a few requirements being satisfied:

1. It must be read in its native tongue (Hebrew). ALL translations are suspect and cannot be trusted.
2. It must be read and understood by using the benefit of the Oral law that was also given to Moses at Har Sinai. We study this oral law by means of the Talmud (mishnayos and gemara) to this very day. In fact, i sit in a 40-minute Talmud (gamara) class 6 mornings a week. I challenge any Chrstians to say they do the same (yet these same Chrstians claim to "know" the OT).
3. A jew must learn Oral law from an accomplished a scholarly rabbi, or from a parent who has spent a lifetime learning Oral law.

BTW, this is the reason no single Chrstian on this website is qualified to say a single thing about what they call OT. It is impossible for Chrstians to have a single valid thought on the Jewish Bible. They should stick to their own (of course, for the sake of interesting discussion, and to dispell the obvious slew of myths that persist, we do have these discussions with you).

And as most scholars of the Hebrew Bible (not Christian, or whatever - it doesn't matter) will inform you - numbers 2 and 3 are not necesarry, unless you're interested in Rabbinic Judaism's interpretation of the Hebrew Bible.
And you can protest that as much as you want, but that's also a fact of the matter.

Rabbinic Judiasm doesn't have some claim to the Hebrew Bible alone, and it's interpretation. That is conservatism speaking - from a Jewish perspective this time, rather than from the usual Christian perspective.
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Old 12-19-2011, 09:03 PM
 
9,341 posts, read 24,434,801 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Godofzeus View Post
Then you have the Ot that is SORELY vague?
You can't fully understand the Torah without the Talmud.
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Old 12-20-2011, 03:56 AM
 
3,488 posts, read 3,096,428 times
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Originally Posted by Walter Greenspan View Post
You can't fully understand the Torah without the Talmud.
Read my post immediately prior to yours - Rabbinnic Judaism is just one more interpretation of the Hebrew Bible. They are not inextricably linked, except in the minds of those who feel Rabbinic Judaism is the only legitimate form of Judaism.

Again - this is like a Fundamentalist Christian claiming that they, alone, hold the keys to the New Testament, and by extension - the Hebrew Bible.
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Old 12-20-2011, 05:14 AM
 
4,083 posts, read 4,249,195 times
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Originally Posted by whoppers View Post
And as most scholars of the Hebrew Bible (not Christian, or whatever - it doesn't matter) will inform you - numbers 2 and 3 are not necesarry, unless you're interested in Rabbinic Judaism's interpretation of the Hebrew Bible.
And you can protest that as much as you want, but that's also a fact of the matter.

Rabbinic Judiasm doesn't have some claim to the Hebrew Bible alone, and it's interpretation. That is conservatism speaking - from a Jewish perspective this time, rather than from the usual Christian perspective.

Judaism does have a claim to the Hebrew Bible simply because it was our and is our book. It was our book before there was Christianity and Christianity took it from us and made it their book.

So honestly I am just not sure how you can say Rabbinic Judaism doesn't have a claim to the Hebrew Bible and its intrepretation.
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Old 12-20-2011, 06:37 AM
 
3,488 posts, read 3,096,428 times
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Originally Posted by Jazzymom View Post
Judaism does have a claim to the Hebrew Bible simply because it was our and is our book. It was our book before there was Christianity and Christianity took it from us and made it their book.

So honestly I am just not sure how you can say Rabbinic Judaism doesn't have a claim to the Hebrew Bible and its intrepretation.
Well, the individual books of the Hebrew Bible are not the exclusive claim of Judaism - which (Judaism) was a late devlopment in the history of the religion of the Israelites. Any good survey of the period will show this. I'm not going to repeat it here, except to say what I said in the above posts, and what is freely available from most reputable reference works on the history of Judaism, the Hebrew Bible, Mosaic Yahwism and Patriarchal Relgion.

Israelite practice has always been diverse (see Patriarchal Religion vs Mosaic Yahwism, or Monolatry vs Monotheism). When Judaism made it's debut (during or shortly after the Babylonian Exile), even that was diverse and dissenting views held forth (see Ezra/Nehemiah vs Ruth/Jonah). The individual books of the Bible are diverse, and even begin to interpret previous books (see Chronicles and it's rewriting of Israelite history, using the Deuteronomist Historian as the basis). Judaism itself began to interpret previous books (see Jubilees on it's rewriting of the Pentateuch and it's view on a Solar Calendar vs a Lunar Calendar). Even the importance of the sacred writings of the Israelites changed in importance - as a result of the Exile, the writings became more central (no more Temple) and rather than a focus on Priestly Birth, literacy and the reading of the Book became important. The very canonization of the Hebrew Bible took many hundreds of years. Even among authors of the Hebrew Bible the argument (that still takes place in the various forms of Judaism found today) of Jerusalem/National Homeland vs Diaspora was present, and manifested in contrary opinions. Alexandrian Judaism became important, as did Babylonian Judaism - to the point that ironically, the later Babylonian Talmud (written in Diaspora essentially, by Jews who chose to never return to the "homeland" and didn't see a problem with losing the Temple - thus Judaism, with it's synagogues, rabbis, home-worship, etc...) became much more influential on Judaism than the Jerusalem Talmud!

In short - these claims that Rabbinic Judaism (which is just one more strand of Judaism among several) preserved the "true" form of worship are nothing more than extreme claims of conservatism and an example of an "Always-So Story": like the typical retro-historicizing of the Oral Torah. Most honest scholars are well aware that Moses wasn't given an Oral Torah, if he even existed at all. For an additional example - see the many arguments within Judaism on whether Abraham kept all of the laws of the Torah, or just the Noahide Covenant (along with the Circumcision act). These arguments spread to the Christian community, and are still debated among jews.



This is the confusion I mentioned initially - when one starts assuming that Judaism is synonmous with Jewishness, one runs the risk of assuming that Judaism has always been the normative factor in Israelite or Jewish history. It's just not as simple as you make it out to be. There's a reason why Rabbinic Judaism had to spend much of it's time interpreting the Hebrew Bible - it presented many challenges to the changing faith of the Jews and their situation. These things can all be found, in detail, in the many reputable and learned works on Jewish history. The mistake to be avoided is the typical conservative habit of turning later interpretations into examples of "Always-So Stories".

Just so you don't misunderstand me: I'm not saying that Rabbinic Judaism does NOT have a claim to be able to interpret the Bible. I'm saying that they do not have the ONLY claim, and that the Hebrew Bible does not, and has not, and never did - belong exclusively to that one, particular strand of Judaism, which arose much later than the Hebrew Bible (even if we admit it's an extension of Pharisaic Judaism, which is a conjecture). They do not "own" it, and nobody "stole" it from them.

The Christians used the Bible because that's where they came from - they were a sect of Judaism that split off eventually; they also used it to legitimate themselves, when they should have just jettisoned it (as many of their writers believed - see Marcion, for one famous example). It is true that they went on a campaign of disinheriting the Jews and their interpretations (and I do not agree with this practice, as should be evident from some of my other posts on this forum) and Paul was probably a bigger traitor than any of his associates. But they did not "steal" the Bible from the Jews - that statement implies that they kept it and never gave it back heh heh!

So, please. Consider what I have written, please. I'm not trying to be nasty. And if my words aren't good enough, consider an academic course in Jewish History - there are many good ones available, taught by competent Jewish scholars who are infinitely familiar with their field. They are (as a somewhat-memorable saying goes) "neither in reaction to their tradition, or in thrall to it".
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Old 12-20-2011, 07:33 AM
 
3,679 posts, read 3,052,034 times
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Whoppers, you're obviously a well-learned and bright guy, and your long post above has some very interesting items in it. But I think your academic approach to Judaism is just that - an academic approach. I thought we were having a religious discussion.

Bottom line, there is only one Torah. That Torah has two components: the written and the oral. One is entirely worthless without the benefit of the other. Over history, groups have sought to understand and use one without the other (the written without using the oral), but I hate to break this to you, but this is a non-Jewish concept. I strongly suspect you don't like that, and I'm beginning to wonder if your well-veiled religious background has revealed that you're some kind of modern day karaite. Again, you MUST understand that the Karaites (those who follow the written Torah but deny the oral Torah) are a movement of religious people OUTSIDE the scope of normative Judaism.

There's nothing wrong with being a Karaite. My experience is these folks are very bright acedemians, but Karaite's are not Jews. The whole modern Karaite concept is really nothing other than ANOTHER non-Jewish approach to usurping the religion and trying to commendeer the religion away from those who practice it daily and properly - yes, Jews...
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