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Old 01-20-2009, 09:36 AM
 
Location: Brussels, Belgium
971 posts, read 1,021,231 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kdbrich View Post
Quote:
I don't know.
The thing is, both options have logical issues. If it wasn't caused... well, everything we know has a cause (ok, not virtual particles), so we have trouble imagining how anything can lack one. If it had a cause, then we can look at that cause and ask the same question. Zeno's paradoxes. So, like Zeno, I admit my ignorance and bewilderment and leave the question for future scientists to answer, hoping that an answer is discoverable.
So I'll take that as a "yeah, I'm sure it had a cause, but I'm too proud to call it God"?
No, you misunderstand me. Read my post again: did I say it had to have a cause?

If the universe had a cause, there is a problem. If it had no cause, there is also a problem. This indicates that we're not asking the right question, or not formulating it properly, like Zeno's paradoxes.
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Old 01-20-2009, 09:46 AM
 
225 posts, read 221,943 times
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KD, even if you go with the supposition that goddidit, that opens up many unpleasant questions in itself. We exist within a thin sliver of breathable air on the surface of a rock wandering through the outskirts of a field of debris 15 billion light years across. Stars and planets die violently as whole systems collide. Wandering asteroids and comets threaten us and someday our sun will go supernova and destroy us and all the planets in this system. What was your gawd thinking brewing up this mess? The universe certainly looks more like an trainwreck in progress than the work of a perfect creator. As numerous other patient posters have said to you, no one knows how it started or if it started at all. But nowhere on it do I see the mark of a flawless creator setting on motion a shiny, perfect universe. I know you are kind of a one trick pony with your 'impossibility of a universe w/o a creator' mantra, but if your gawd made this, he is seriously messy.
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Old 01-20-2009, 09:51 AM
 
4,669 posts, read 1,602,517 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZugZub View Post
First off, this isn't a simple question. You're deliberately, blatantly, and frankly quite clumsily trying to plant a land mine in hopes that someone will say something to which you can reply "it-had-to-be-that-god-did-it".

Nobody knows how the universe came into existence, but the simple fact is that just because we don't know doesn't make the answer automatically default to your magical creator-being.

Let's reiterate: "we don't know" is not equal to "god did it".

We know that it had a beginning. That much is almost universally accepted by most scientists today. Stuff like the expansion of the universe, the concept of time passing (and not being infinite), entropy,etc point to that.

Having said that, we also know that nothing exists that did not have a cause of some sort.

Logically, that leads us to conclude that there was a cause/creator for the universe. To state otherwise just isn't rational.
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Old 01-20-2009, 09:53 AM
 
Location: Nashville, Tn
7,917 posts, read 11,560,637 times
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kdbrich wrote:
Quote:
so was it caused or not?

Is it rational to conclude that it wasn't? Considering a basic fundamental fact is that nothing happens without being caused....
You're asking questions that can't be answered and then suggesting that logic points to a creator. Our limited knowledge of physics can't tell us if the big bang was caused or not because this is an occurrance that can't be observed or studied. Also, logic does not point to a creator as the cause of anything. That just leaves you with more unanswered questions regarding the nature and origins of the creator. It also seems apparent that the concept of a creator is just a man made idea and is being used to fill in the void where we really don't have any verifiable answers.
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Old 01-20-2009, 09:55 AM
 
124 posts, read 210,176 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noland123 View Post
God created it and that is a fact.

Prove it.
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Old 01-20-2009, 10:09 AM
 
2,633 posts, read 3,237,900 times
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Kd: What caused god?
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Old 01-20-2009, 10:30 AM
 
4,669 posts, read 1,602,517 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coosjoaquin View Post
Kd: What caused god?

Using logic, we can deduce that there was an uncaused cause.

If God was created, and then his creator was created, etc...at some point it has to stop. Since we know that it's impossible to traverse an infinite amount of time, we can't go back far enough to have an infinite regression of creators.

The simplest answer is to believe the God that created the universe was uncreated and eternal--existing outside of the universe that He created. It's the rational response.
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Old 01-20-2009, 10:35 AM
 
1,788 posts, read 2,914,357 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kdbrich View Post
It's the rational response.
LOL! I do not theenk that word means what you theenk eet means!
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Old 01-20-2009, 10:39 AM
 
Location: Nashville, Tn
7,917 posts, read 11,560,637 times
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kdbrich wrote:
Quote:
The simplest answer is to believe the God that created the universe was uncreated and eternal--existing outside of the universe that He created. It's the rational response.
Consider what you just said. You stated earlier that everything has to have a cause but now you're making an exception for God. You call this a rational response but it doesn't make any sense and it's inconsistent. There's also not a shred of evidence that would support such a conclusion.
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Old 01-20-2009, 10:52 AM
 
4,669 posts, read 1,602,517 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZugZub View Post
LOL! I do not theenk that word means what you theenk eet means!
Cheap shots and personal insults aside, I would think believing the universe just popped into existence w/out a cause is quite irrational. But you can cling to your fairytale if it helps you sleep at night.



Quote:
Originally Posted by MontanaGuy View Post
kdbrich wrote:

Consider what you just said. You stated earlier that everything has to have a cause but now you're making an exception for God. You call this a rational response but it doesn't make any sense and it's inconsistent. There's also not a shred of evidence that would support such a conclusion.


If God created matter and time, then he existed prior to time.
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