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I thought the scientific method was to make a hypothesis, gather data, then draw conclusions.
Based on that, one cannot help but to draw the conclusion that this universe was created, based on the data we have.
You have no data supporting your hypothesis on how the universe came to be. Without data, you cannot make conclusions about your hypothesis, which means your "hypothesis" is one thing -- a guess.
You guess the universe has a creator. Your guess is unsupported by data and untestable. Therefore, it's useless.
On the other hand, I make NO GUESSES about the origin of the universe. I simply don't know how it began, and if I never know it's not going to phase me in the least. Unlike you, I don't have a burning need to have a god-reason for everything. And unlike you, simply because I do not know doesn't mean the answer always automatically defaults to "it's god".
You have no data supporting your hypothesis on how the universe came to be. Without data, you cannot make conclusions about your hypothesis, which means your "hypothesis" is one thing -- a guess.
You guess the universe has a creator. Your guess is unsupported by data and untestable. Therefore, it's useless.
So...stuff like the fact that it had a beginning and it couldn't have created itself, and the apparent order of the universe doesn't indicate a creator?
Based on those things, it's a valid hypothesis.
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On the other hand, I make NO GUESSES about the origin of the universe. I simply don't know how it began, and if I never know it's not going to phase me in the least. Unlike you, I don't have a burning need to have a god-reason for everything. And unlike you, simply because I do not know doesn't mean the answer always automatically defaults to "it's god".
There's at least as much evidence for a creator as anything else.
So...stuff like the fact that it had a beginning and it couldn't have created itself, and the apparent order of the universe doesn't indicate a creator?
No, there are many things that exist that don't have a "creator".
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Based on those things, it's a valid hypothesis.
No, it's not. You have no supporting data.
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There's at least as much evidence for a creator as anything else.
*yawn* These are not the droids you are looking for, move along.
No, there are many things that exist that don't have a "creator".
I'll re-phrase it.
Nothing exists that has not been caused to exist by something else.
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No, it's not. You have no supporting data.
The universe itself is supporting data. Along with simple laws such as nothing existing w/out being caused to exist by something else.
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*yawn* These are not the droids you are looking for, move along.
I don't expect you to admit you're wrong. Keep shaking your fist at God and pretending he doesn't exist if it makes you feel better. At this point I've kind of taken the position of "you can lead an atheist to proof, but you can't make him(her) believe".
Nothing exists that has not been caused to exist by something else.
Problem is, you jump from that statement to immediately claiming that your god caused everything to exist.
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The universe itself is supporting data. Along with simple laws such as nothing existing w/out being caused to exist by something else.
What about virtual particles?
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I don't expect you to admit you're wrong.
I can't "admit" I'm wrong. Saying "I don't know" is not wrong. Supply me with proof and I'll consider changing my mind. Unlike you, I don't claim to have the answers, thus I am not required to submit proof of my thoughts on the matter.
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Keep shaking your fist at God and pretending he doesn't exist if it makes you feel better.
I'm not pretending. Now pardon me while I shake my fist at Santa, the Easter bunny, purple flying unicorns, dragons, and the Tooth Fairy.
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At this point I've kind of taken the position of "you can lead an atheist to proof, but you can't make him(her) believe".
You've led us nowhere, and you've supplied no proofs. Face it, your arguments hold no water because you have no evidence to back up your claim of the existence of a creator. *shrug*
Last edited by ZugZub; 01-21-2009 at 09:10 AM..
Reason: clarity
I'm sorry, I can't reason with you. You're too irrational.
Any person who cannot admit that they simply do not know how the universe came to be is the irrational one. I don't know seems to be the most difficult phrase for many Christians to say, but if they were honest with themselves it's the one that they should use.
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