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Old 01-26-2009, 04:44 PM
 
3,086 posts, read 5,575,217 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MontanaGuy View Post

There's plenty of atheists who engage in name calling too, I'll be the first to admit that. You always sound reasonable and can engage in a good conversation. I wouldn't try to categorize all believers the same way and judging by the high quality of rifleman's posts, I'm sure he wouldn't either.
I appreciate your attitude too, even tho we disagree on alot of things.
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Old 01-26-2009, 06:21 PM
BST
 
Location: Powell, TN
451 posts, read 1,023,181 times
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I haven't read the entire thread...forgive me if this is redundant. The Judeo-Christian beliefs are so steeped in Genesis - especially mankind's relationship with God and the choice between good and evil - that the steps to forgiveness and reconciliation become nul and void if that foundation crumbles. If there is no God, there is no judge. If there is no judge, there is no penalty for evil. If there is no penalty for evil, there is no need for penitence. If there is no need for penitence, there is no need for sacrifice. If there is no need for sacrifice, there is no need for bulls/lambs/Jesus. (Pick your option based upon your faith.)

I'm too emotionally connected to Jesus to ever make that switch. I'll respectfully listen to your evidence and/or opinions, but keep on in the tenets and traditions of Christianity. Yes, Jesus did claim to be the only way to God. If I choose to believe that, and you don't, does that make us arch enemies? I don't think it should.

Each of us, as adults, probably believes the other would be better off if he would only 'see things my way.' That's one thing I guarantee we all share in common.
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Old 01-27-2009, 06:27 AM
 
49 posts, read 121,669 times
Reputation: 50
Default The truth

there is an ancient chines proverb that only a lie has to be defended with force: the truth defends itself: Atheists don't have to get uptight: you can believe truth or you can believe lies.
Whatever you believe, be happy with it: just don't harsh my gig
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Old 01-27-2009, 06:32 AM
 
1,245 posts, read 1,233,121 times
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^ No wars have been started in the name of Atheism. Its not like you can say "Oh just leave us alone were not bothering anyone with our beliefs." Christianity is being shoved down American's throats by their hold over American politics, who was the last president that wasn't a christian? I mean really people can believe what they want to believe, but to force it upon other people is ludicrous.
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Old 01-27-2009, 06:52 AM
 
4,512 posts, read 6,597,577 times
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Thanks for the information. i really mean it.

http://the.mysterious.alex.googlepages.com/pwningn00bs(ahow-to (http://the.mysterious.alex.googlepages.com/pwningn00bs%28ahow-to - broken link))
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Old 01-27-2009, 10:33 AM
 
512 posts, read 617,070 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mommax3plus2 View Post
may i ask rifleman- were you raised atheist or with some spiritual/religious upbringing.

i am having a hard time with all of this. and i guess, until you said it, was not aware that i am desperately clinging to a belief system i do not believe in. all along the only thing i was quite sure of is that i do believe in God, i just dont know how it all fits. that is the foundation of my belief. so i was just wondering if you ever believed in God, or if you always didnt believe.
I know this was directed at someone else, but.. I used to be a believer. I was raised Catholic, but lost all faith in the christian religion, simply because it does not make sense. I recognized the flaws and inconsistencies and was not comfortable saying I believed anymore. I have yet to find any religion that is any better. The reason that I don't believe is because I have studied christianity and it's history, and from that point of view it is very easy to see why christianity was CREATED.

There is no evidence of God or his influence, and if someone tells you that you are not trying hard enough or you aren't seeing with your heart or any other BS excuse, just trust yourself.

One thing I faced was the disapproval of religious friends and family. You don't have to stay in your religious crowd to have friends though, and true friends wont abandon you.

I found the idea of heaven hard to leave behind, but that just adds to my theory that religion is wishful thinking. I wanted God to be real, but only because of my selfish desire to see the ones I love again. That desire is no reason to subject yourself to the unnecessary guilt and fear that comes along with it. Hope this helps
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Old 01-27-2009, 11:17 AM
 
Location: Somewhere out there
9,616 posts, read 11,103,487 times
Reputation: 3719
Thumbs up Observed results lead to obvious conclusions....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
even your precious Richard Dawkins
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
I never said that. I said that is what true atheism should be from the many things you preach, no laws. There are many upstanding atheists. I believe in "once saved always saved" so you were never a Christian.
Nice nasty put-down! Actually, I'd say she was never an IDT* (see below). She was capable of independant sceptical thinking. Ohhh Noooo!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
I respectfully disagree that there is cold, hard evidence to support evolution but I do agree that there is tons to support your theory of presupposition of evolution.
First off, fundamentalist, this is my thread, it is, it is, it is! You're wayyyy off point, but then I'm not going to ask the mod to toss you out because, here for all to see, you're just providing firm documented evidence of my thread point.

As in: your quote which I've highlighted in blue above. Remember, fundamentalist, science is NEVER stagnant. You say there's no proof. That was last year, sir! Take an hour and read my thread about the RECENT (late summer, '08) PROOF OF SPECIATION (Lenski, Blount and Borland; journ. Nat. Ac. of Sci. Sept 2008):

"Historical contingency and the evolution of a key innovation in an experimental population of Escherichia coli."

Reviewed and accepted for peer-reviewed publication by The National Academy of Science, who collectively and significantly out-trump your level of academia and scientific credibility, I'll just bet good money on it!

But, please, go ahead; tell us it's a "hoax". Yell that "This isn't proof of anything!" Stamp your feet and cry out that "The results were inconclusive, biased, (fill in your own nasty term here _________)".

Or deflect by calling Dawkins some names. Yes, nowadays he can be a bit "testy" after years of being insulted regularly by those who couldn't even begin to think out a problem with his level of accumen and clarity.

Go ahead! Make my day! And thus, my OP point!

Scientifically proved by hypothesis, documentation, replication and rational conclusion. Thanks for your willing help, "f"!

Last edited by rifleman; 01-27-2009 at 11:20 AM.. Reason: typos
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Old 01-27-2009, 11:26 AM
 
Location: NYC area
3,486 posts, read 4,956,288 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
even if God did not exist I would be more than shocked to believe that it was all by chance. I would have to believe that aliens were behind it but everything is too perfect, too precise to even think a more highly developed life form could have produced this therefore since it is humanly and extra terrestrially impossible it would have to be outside of natural therefore unnatural which would make it supernatural in origin and that's why I believe that supernatural is God.
Fundamentalist, if you were a rain puddle sitting in a depression in the road surface, you'd probably also think someone created the two of you (the dip and the puddle) especially for each other. You fit so precisely!
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Old 01-27-2009, 11:31 AM
 
Location: Pikeville, Ky.
13,473 posts, read 21,266,229 times
Reputation: 17707
Quote:
Originally Posted by cg81 View Post
I've never felt my belief "threatened" in the sense you are talking about: My belief stands. I have nothing to fear.
I agree and my belief also stands...My belief has not been threatened in these forums, just scorned, chastized and sent to hell many times,by well meaning (?) christians..I prefer just to mostly lurk around these days...What difference does it make that I think the creation took billions of years? What difference does it make whether I believe every word was written by God through men holding the writing implements, or if I believe much of the ot was written by well inspired faithful men? What difference does it make that I don't "assemble" with like minded believers once a week? What difference does it make that I don't feel the need to quote (google) two pages of scripture to prove what I believe? What difference does it make that I have many friends here of ALL beliefs and no beliefs? It makes absolutely no difference to me because my faith is strong enough that I don't feel the reason to MAKE people believe what I do...I may unintentionally do ONE thing..Plant seeds and it may or may not cause someone to "wonder" the rest is up to that person and God/creator....I trust the HS that dwells within me and am not threatened because of the assurance and peace He has given me...
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Old 01-27-2009, 11:49 AM
 
Location: Somewhere out there
9,616 posts, read 11,103,487 times
Reputation: 3719
Wink Thanks, cg, and well said!

Quote:
Originally Posted by cg81 View Post
I'm sorry you feel that way.. and at the same time, I can't say I blame you. But have you thought of the possibility that some of us who don't like arguing simply tend to avoid "controversial" threads, knowing that any response we give will soon be lost in a torrent of ___________ < (don't know what to put in the blank)?

(rflmn responds If folks don't like to discuss or argue their perspectives, cg, they surely wouldn't show up on this C-D forum, nor post replies, would they? If they want to completely avoid controversial threads, then they should go to the Sesame Street web site [www.sesamestreet.org, BTW], or to one of the sites that "confirm" Christ and Intelligent Design and co-existing dinosaurs. To be here is to accept confrontation, yes?

I've never felt my belief "threatened" in the sense you are talking about: (Oh no, another scientific discovery.. I better close my eyes and start calling people names!) I've had discussions on all of the above topics, and many more. My belief stands. I have nothing to fear.
I'm actually very glad and happy for you. You are probably NOT a rigorous literalist about the bible either, right? To be an IDT (see my previous post), one will always get into arguments with the more rational element of believers and atheists and Muslims, Buddhists, Shinto-ists, etc.) unless they keep their IDT thoughts entirely to themselves.

But if you're of the "Alien mother-ship will be here soon, and YOU, my friend, need to prepare! I really want YOU to join "us"!!! type, well, you've just got to spread the news. Valid but conflicting evidence from astronomers that your spaceship is actually an errant meteorite will be met with mobs of pitchfork- and torch-wielding believers.

Check out the movie "Contact" with Jodie Foster and the Wacko Christian Fringe who blow up the "device" to protect us from "The Truth". Typical and well portrayed, incl. their very wild-eyed leader!http://http://www.mysmiley.net/imgs/smile/rolleye/rolleye0018.gif (broken link)

Therefore, I'd hope that you, cg81, can probably comment and contribute thoughtfully to this thread with your ideas as to why, exactly, the IDT types are SO strident, vigorous and combative. Any deeper insights?
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