Spiritual Desperation ! or ?

[rifleman]

Originally Posted by Miss Blue

I agree and my belief also stands...My belief has not been threatened in these forums,

I may unintentionally do ONE thing..Plant seeds and it may or may not cause someone to "wonder" the rest is up to that person and God/creator....I trust the HS that dwells within me and am not threatened because of the assurance and peace He has given me...

Glad to hear your thoughts, Miss Blue! I, of course, reff'd my OP to those who can't accept any other ideas, evidence, realities or alternate supernatural beliefs. I also hope to plant some seeds. Seeds growing into independant thoughts and the asking of questions.

You folks who are more or less at peace with perhaps not needing an explanation for everything, and realizing that the bible can't possibly answer all questions about we humans and our perception of The Universe, are not the ones, I suspect, who rant against atheist's posts here on C-D.

As for some thought-starters, here's a few! What influence do readers feel the following cultural and personal belief elements have in the strict beliefs of IDTs?

1. Need to belong to a specifically like-minded group?

2. Need to live in a world about which there are no questions that need to be asked and answered about one's origins, purpose, guiding influences, etc.?

3. Need to defend a pre-determined set of life-rules against sceptical questions?

4. Need to paint non-believers as somehow morally bereft, without ethical, behavioural or spiritual standards,and hence, obviously, not to be believed or even listened to or, more dangerously, put up with?

5. Need to paint science's ever-evolving, developing and increasing knowledge as "Satan's Workbook" as a blunt to what is otherwise perceived as a direct and personal attack?

Now, while these categories may seem, on first blush, somewhat sarcastic or hostile, please.... look at each one carefully. I simply ask these questions honestly because they directly address my OP, and would explain the responses I've seen in by far the majority of IDT defenders.

If I can tease out a few honest agreements by some of the more strident defenders of literalist Christianity, I will have accomplished my "agenda", which is exactly that. If they realize the degree they've been holding back, rejecting open evaluations of presented information, and kicking back with intent to psychologically harm others, perhaps we can all move ahead.

"To What End??"... you might ask?

Let's Try: No more Crusades (iraq War), no more Inquisitions (GitMo water boarding), no more silly anti-Evolution, anti-science PTA meetings in the great heart of our country, no more demonizing of atheists or Christians or Mormons or Buddhists or Muslims, no more Isreali rockets blasting innocent Palestinian women and children... well, you get the picture.

I only want what's best for our society, man! Even for fundamentailst!

P&L2A! rflmn™

[cncracer]

Originally Posted by rifleman

I intend to retain a complete separation of "church and agno/atheism" here. This is not another "Proof / Disproof of Arks, dinosaurs or Ice age geology" thread. Go elsewhere please!

I'm interested in exploring the various reasons that people of faith, any faith, are so unable to tear themselves away from that faith. We regularly and reliably see here on C-D, very typical and similar responses by people of faith (mostly Christian) to any logical presentations or cold, hard scientific proof of, say, speciation through Evolution, for example. always, when cornered, or asked straightforward questions, the deflection and "rabbit-holing" (or nasty insulting ad hominems...) is quite predictable and documented. Why, exactly?

At best, the most frequent occurrence by a idolistic spiritualist (as opposed to a person such as I who enjoys my spritualism absent any building, particular location, thing around my neck, or hand on a particular book) seems to be perhaps a brave sampling of other versions of the same basic faith (Presbyterian versus Catholic versus Mormon, etc.). A lot fewer go from evangelical Christianity to, say, Buddhism. Not too many convert either way between Islam and Jesus. A few brave individualists drop it entirely and go from Christian to Agno to Atheist.

If one considers just why an individual is a devout abiding evangelical Christian or Muslim (is it a need for spiritual security, for example?), or a need to "belong" to a nice comfy community group, (or a terrorist cell, sadly...) or perhaps to be able to set aside ALL doubt in their minds about the Grand Uncertainties that will accompany a more curious approach to the Universe and it's "forever" mysteries, perhaps we can catch a glimmer of just how the truly inviolately devout think.

And how, perhaps a somewhat single-minded perspective might affect (positively as well as negatively, BTW) their approach to other non-spiritual aspects of their life (Buying nails down at Ace Hardware, talking to the tele-marketer on the phone, meeting an atheist at a secular cocktail party, etc., etc.).

What, exactly, do such folks gain over a more broad-minded atheistic approach*? Alternately, what do they lose?

(*I define that broad-minded "approach" as being one that's free of the burdens of having to conclude that everything observed or felt is the result of a supernatural deity, instead reasoning that it might rather have some as yet undiscovered reason for existing).

Of course, I'm an atheist. No doubt about it. Accordingly, I'm asking those of you who don't have the cross of ignorance and bias and ego and a scientific education to bear. Please... speak up. Perhaps I've been wrong all these years?

Nicely now.... all in the interests of a broader understanding!

(PS: light-hearted humor always appreciated!)

I tried to follow this in order, but am sure I climbed on a soap box and expanded the questions/answers. In my view nobody can answer your questions fully, but to touch the tip of the iceberg from my backyard here is what I see and think.

I think there are lots of reasons the faithful continue to follow blindly. The first in no special order is fear to accept the responsibility of their existences and their responsibility to look after the environment they live in. The mind set of the “end of the world is close”, and rapture into a perfect world, seems easier than taking responsibility for what they have, and working for a better class of humanity today. They had just rather do nothing and wait for their mythical hereafter.

My next insight into their view is the arrogance and erroneous view of having a supreme morality because of their god or gods. This view survives despite the proof of the religious atrocities they overlook and make excuses for. It is always what the other side did not what their side did.

The religious view of, “I have an inside line on morality” and there being no other view to replace their value system is a sure way method to end up in a religious war, and of course their god will forgive it, even if the other gods don't.

All humanity (Atheist also) have a weakness which is tied to the fear of unknown. For many the slavery of organized religion’s myths are better than the fears of not knowing. For others the fear of not knowing drives them to question everything. Two sharp sides to the same knife and both can cut deep.

Followers look for a sign of power and the Church recognizes if they build the massive buildings it gives the appearance of power and will help keep the sheep following and amazed. The organized churches call their members Sheep and some seem to think that is a good thing. I see it as an addiction to ignorance, or just being lazy.

The willingness to look at another view seems tied in all cultures to education. Knowledge frees a person from the bondage of religion in my view.

For humans who need socialization the organized church is one answer. As an introvert I think any group of people over four or five is stressful, and I am sure it has helped me avoid organized religion. I am equally sure it has pulled many into the herd.

If a human start to look at any religion, the logic to support it would in time result in the breakdown of that faith. This is why many religions want to keep their sheep uneducated. It is another reason why some religions want to use Latin. It makes it much easier to make bold statements if the listeners don’t understand what you are saying. I don’t know of any religion today that can hold up to questions on their dogma from an educated curious mind.


What, exactly, do such folks gain over a more broad-minded atheistic approach*? Alternately, what do they lose?
I know of nothing they gain.
They lose the place they like to hide.
They lose the excuse they use to kill others with different views.
They lose the ability to take a position of moral high ground.
They lose the ability to make excuses based on lies and mythology.

[SuSuSushi]

Originally Posted by cncracer

All humanity (Atheist also) have a weakness which is tied to the fear of unknown.

I disagree. I don't fear the unknown. I've got a deep curiosity about some of it, but it's not fear by any means. I don't fear death either; I may have trepidation about the method of my death and whether or not it will be very painful, but death itself holds no fear for me. I don't fear the time before I was alive, why should I fear the time afterwards?

[cg81]

Originally Posted by rifleman

(rflmn responds If folks don't like to discuss or argue their perspectives, cg, they surely wouldn't show up on this C-D forum, nor post replies, would they? If they want to completely avoid controversial threads, then they should go to the Sesame Street web site [www.sesamestreet.org, BTW], or to one of the sites that "confirm" Christ and Intelligent Design and co-existing dinosaurs. To be here is to accept confrontation, yes?

True.. and I anticipated this response. To say it like it is, I've been here for 2 years. Nothing's new. I've addressed every topic, every controversial thread. I've spent hours showing where I'm coming from regarding topics like the Flood, Creation, homosexuality, etc. There have been many meaningful discussions, and some that have turned out to be rather pointless. One thing I've found out... very few people here come here to learn. Most come Knowing (or at least they think they do!). Most have already rejected the other party's answer before they received it. For example, I have wrote many posts on free will and how I believe this to work together with an all-powerful God, and yet threads still pop up like "Why didn't a loving God stop Hitler" etc. etc. etc. and the same people, who have asked the same questions before, and read the efforts of people who have tried to explain it... they enter the thread and by their remarks show that they have learned nothing at all.

Talking to a brick wall finally gets old.

To be fair, their are constantly new people coming on here, and asking what they think is a brand-new and earth-shattering (or God-shattering) question. They're still energized for the fight. And there are people on the other side of the fence who are also still energized to fight against them.

And so, I say, let them fight it out! As long as I don't have to clean up.

I'm actually very glad and happy for you. You are probably NOT a rigorous literalist about the bible either, right?

You'd probably consider me the most fundamental and unwavering bible literalist on the board. Just not feeling very rigorous right now!

To be an IDT (see my previous post), one will always get into arguments with the more rational element of believers and atheists and Muslims, Buddhists, Shinto-ists, etc.) unless they keep their IDT thoughts entirely to themselves.

Do you mean "Intelligent Design Teaching" or "Idiot"? Assuming you mean the first, yes, I believe that God created the world.. and I've had alot of rational discussions with people on the other side of the camp. It usually tends towards a more useful discussion if neither party thinks of the other as IDT definition #2.

But if you're of the "Alien mother-ship will be here soon, and YOU, my friend, need to prepare! I really want YOU to join "us"!!! type, well, you've just got to spread the news. Valid but conflicting evidence from astronomers that your spaceship is actually an errant meteorite will be met with mobs of pitchfork- and torch-wielding believers.

Therefore, I'd hope that you, cg81, can probably comment and contribute thoughtfully to this thread with your ideas as to why, exactly, the IDT types are SO strident, vigorous and combative. Any deeper insights?

I don't know if I have any deep insights into why some people become combative ID(io)T's.

[cg81]

Therefore, I'd hope that you, cg81, can probably comment and contribute thoughtfully to this thread with your ideas as to why, exactly, the IDT types are SO strident, vigorous and combative. Any deeper insights?

Just a few random thoughts on this topic...

While I believe that some promoters of ID are doing some good, yet I disagree with the ways some are going about it. For example, I believe in the separation of church and state. Why would I try to push for laws requiring unbelievers to learn about Creation? To me this is pointless... going about it completely backwards. I don't believe in God because I believe in Creation.. I believe in Creation because I believe in God. Trying to force someone to learn about Creation when they don't believe in God is putting the cart before the horse.

Another thing that I think may be happening is that ID promoters are trying to prove something scientifically that just isn't scientifically provable, thus getting themself in a corner and having to become loud. Not everything is provable. There is alot we must take on faith. This does in no way mean that we close our eyes to science, but we need to accept that we will never prove God scientifically.. we have other proof. We don't need to convince anyone.. the best thing we can do is truly live what we believe, and let the details take care of themself.

[rifleman]

I provided this definition of my Acronym a few posts ago. I've gotta go right now, but I do thank you for your honest post and tohughts. esp. about your long-term experiences.

I have some perhaps basically unkind and dis-respectful thoughts about Intelligent Design, (I AM, after all, a scientist...) but I hope to posit them politely and will look forward to your answers. Thx & good night. to all!

[rifleman]

Words of infinited wisdom from cg81!


"One thing I've found out... very few people here come here to learn. Most come Knowing (or at least they think they do!)"

I'd like to do a thread, under Great Debates, asking the listening audience exactly how many have had any change in their life's basic beliefs (about anything) changed because of reading and participating in a C-D forum.

It'd likely be a v. small percentage number, yes?

[Bud235]

Being religious, in general, are not by choice. Most religious people were born in a religious family/community. Religions are handed down to them through traditions of systematic indoctrinations on young minds (e.g. Sunday schools). People brainwashed in this way have malfunctioning brains when it comes to religious matters, they lost their usual rational thinking abilities. Most religious posters here are products of such traditions.

Being non-religious is simply being normal with regard to religious delusions.

[Campbell34]

Originally Posted by Bud235

Being religious, in general, are not by choice. Most religious people were born in a religious family/community. Religions are handed down to them through traditions of systematic indoctrinations on young minds (e.g. Sunday schools). People brainwashed in this way have malfunctioning brains when it comes to religious matters, they lost their usual rational thinking abilities. Most religious posters here are products of such traditions.

Being non-religious is simply being normal with regard to religious delusions.

My first experience in the religious relm came when I was about 4 years old. My father was more of a drinking, gambling kind of guy who did not go to church back then, and my mother went to church, but never brought it home. When I was 4 years old I had a vision or a dream of the coming Anti-Christ. I did not know who he was when I saw him, yet I discovered who he was latter on. This experience had nothing to do with any indoctrinations. It was an experience seperate from religion. So you can't blame it on brainwashing.

Being non-religious, simply means you have not asked the God of the universe to reveal Himself to you.