U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
 
Old 01-28-2009, 04:02 AM
 
Location: South Africa
5,563 posts, read 6,175,913 times
Reputation: 1785

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heracles View Post
SeekerSA said:
I have tried to explain how this came about from a human failure perspective and to apportion blame on God whether you believe in a deity or not is just as big a cop out as Christians make when they say, "there but for the grace of God go I"


I would be more inclined to buy this argument if for example god and humanity were two residents in an apartment and god just wasn't pulling his weight. But if you are to be believed, your god made it all. He has absolute moral and physical power over this world and created us all.
I do not take biblical accounts literally esp in the OT as there are just too many inconsistencies. However, we are "created" IMO with a moral consciousness and like Jesus taught of loving one's neighbor as oneself, it requires no belief in any form of a deity to achieve that.
Quote:
He has complete moral culpability for what happens here, regardless of what humans do or do not do. His failure to act in the interests of his creations is unforgivable
I agree with the premise yet it has a way of putting us on the spot in what did I do today?
Quote:
If someone buys a puppy and tortures it, can the puppy be guilty of anything but existing? I think this is what others are trying to say here, albeit in a much more aggressive way.
I understand.

My take is this. If god is true and if Jesus was a real person not a summation of many characters, then looking simply at His teachings stands out to me as the moral thing to do. You will notice if you read the synoptics that He generally had issues with the religious Jews of the day - like the story of the Samaritan one could equate today to represent and unbeliever verses the believer of today.

For me to accept that all creation/nature came from some primordial slime of random cells and DNA is just too far out for me to swallow. That said, I do not dismiss evolution entirely as there is evidence of this theory.

I am honest enough to state "I am not sure". Whether there is an afterlife or not does not bother me, neither does that motivate my belief. Nothing supernatural has happened to me so I have no godunnit testimony. I do not hear voices in my head other than my own thoughts.

That said, in South Africa we never had a "state" religion and so called constitutions allegedly based on biblical principles but we did have a right wing white supremacy mindset where folk were taking stuff from the bible to justify themselves.

The premise of my previous post was to point out the hypocrisy of the poster and it can be summed up in one of Jesus' teachings:
Judge not, in the same way you measure it out, it will be measured back to you.
Watching these debates, it is like two camps on a sinking boat, each one blaming the other for the hole in the boat instead of addressing the problem, the hole in the boat.

Ironically, there are many Christian organizations that provide relief and charity but you hardly ever hear of them. They are not out for publicity or to garner support for a said church based on their charity. There are of course non Christian organizations that do this too. These are the folk that garner my respect.

Had the pic been of any other culture, I probably would not have voiced my opinion.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 01-28-2009, 04:28 AM
 
225 posts, read 307,455 times
Reputation: 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeekerSA View Post
My take is this. If god is true and if Jesus was a real person not a summation of many characters, then looking simply at His teachings stands out to me as the moral thing to do.
I don't think you have really addressed the issue. This doesn't surprise me too much because I do not think there is a way to reconcile a god belief with human suffering.
Simply put: If your god has the ability to act in order to stop horrible suffering on earth, why doesn't he? If this is a test, we have failed and he should step in and pull the plug. We are not up to the task of stopping the grief ourselves, either through indifference, or greed, or stupidity. No doubt people could do more but no matter, they are not doing it and he should. Your responses seem to sound just like my apartment analogy, that god and humanity are equal partners with equal ability to act. But in reality he holds all the cards. He has the ability to make empathy and love and compassion (and rain and food), but he does not do it.
I posit that your god does not exist. That is the only explanation for why there is such pain in the world.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-28-2009, 04:48 AM
 
Location: South Africa
5,563 posts, read 6,175,913 times
Reputation: 1785
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heracles View Post
I posit that your god does not exist. That is the only explanation for why there is such pain in the world.
Well let us take your angle then.

You obviously seem to want to blame the "unseen" god you do not believe in expecting results you obviously doubt will happen.

If so then what are you doing about it?

When you can demonstrate you are morally better than me or anyone else for that matter, then you can judge.

If you actually read what you said here in bold, you are actually blaming the nonexistence of god for the pain. Is the real guilty person not man alone?

The whole debate of whether God exists or not has been going on for millennia so I doubt any resolution will come from this discussion.

The way I live out my beliefs is by doing that which is morally correct and that morality does not necessarily stem from the bible. The real irony is, that most unbelievers are closer to the truth of Jesus than many Christians. (BTW I do not attend church)
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-28-2009, 05:10 AM
 
225 posts, read 307,455 times
Reputation: 115
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeekerSA View Post
Well let us take your angle then.
You obviously seem to want to blame the "unseen" god you do not believe in expecting results you obviously doubt will happen.
I think that suffering will go on. It is part of life on this little planet and there is quite a bit more to come. However, this entire thread is about the cognitive dissonance that should be bringing believers to their knees as they attempt to reconcile their faith with atrocity. I do not 'blame' a god for anything, but I have quite a bit of criticism for humans who try to explain away good and bad using a god.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SeekerSA View Post
If so then what are you doing about it?
When you can demonstrate you are morally better than me or anyone else for that matter, then you can judge.
I've liked the level headedness I have gotten from you so far. As for numerous others here on these boards, I think I am quite a bit more moral than those who wave their bibles in the air and speak of the sinfulness of homosexuality, for example, wishing damnation upon others, all while 'taking the moral high ground.' harumph. I demand consistency in other's moral approach or they get little respect from me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SeekerSA View Post
If you actually read what you said here in bold, you are actually blaming the nonexistence of god for the pain. Is the real guilty person not man alone?
To the degree that man is able to stop suffering, yes. But this thread is designed to challenge believers, not me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SeekerSA View Post
The whole debate of whether God exists or not has been going on for millennia so I doubt any resolution will come from this discussion.
I agree. Again, I think this is designed to make believers think critically about what they believe.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SeekerSA View Post
The way I live out my beliefs is by doing that which is morally correct and that morality does not necessarily stem from the bible. The real irony is, that most unbelievers are closer to the truth of Jesus than many Christians. (BTW I do not attend church)
Well, I'm an atheist but me wife calls me a better Christian than most Christians.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-28-2009, 05:57 AM
 
Location: Nowhere'sville
2,345 posts, read 3,828,705 times
Reputation: 701
Ya know what the real kick in pants is?! There's a scripture about god caring for even the sparrows so why would he not provide for you....blah blah blah....Them birds got food, but not those poor people in Africa at the time!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-28-2009, 07:12 AM
 
Location: South Africa
5,563 posts, read 6,175,913 times
Reputation: 1785
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaniMae1 View Post
Ya know what the real kick in pants is?! There's a scripture about god caring for even the sparrows so why would he not provide for you....blah blah blah....Them birds got food, but not those poor people in Africa at the time!
I think when one examine history with a critical eye, much of what happened and even today still happens in the "name of god(s)" is a deflection for human fallibility.

In my life I have come to realize that most people have similar value systems like making a better life for their children, equal justice for all et al. What happens even today but most deny is a modern aristocracy which few are privy to and thus the plebs like us have to suck up to their systems of governance.

In any society there remains a hierarchy as not all can be leaders. In today's society, most folk concern themselves with their personal trinity of me, myself and I. We have lost the community values our forefathers may have had. Communities require rules and what better way to get folk to tow the line than to claim an unseen god.

Religion is the most divisive form of separation and sadly what it purports to represent, it seldom does. Churches today IMO are no more than clubs where folk pay to listen to an orator.

Much of what was written in the OT is debunked by science and IMO we were created with the curiosity to search out the meaning of life. Were there other animals that had language skills slightly inferior to ours, maybe that would have put a different spin on things. Seeing how folk have been enslaved, these imaginary folk would no doubt be our cheap slave labor of today.

Were we all hermits by nature, we would not have evolved to be technologically superior. We have communities we call cities but these are too impersonal. Even if you attend say a night club for human interaction, at the end of the day, all you have is safety in numbers and maybe find a mate.

The ideal would be to have all the benefits of community society but to be your own person. Sadly that does not happen and we all interact in one way or another. Religion takes care of "need" just as a club takes care of the need where folk will pay to have a skilled DJ or a good band.

When you look at modern churches, the P&W teams are usually very skilled musicians and have to compete with the other "clubs"

The religious try and influence society the way they see fit and so too do others. Mutual tolerance is the key as not all folk share the same "value" system(s). Thankfully today we have rule of law that does not allow the burning of heretics.

One will never eradicate religion as it is too well entrenched in society.

Last edited by SeekerSA; 01-28-2009 at 08:37 AM.. Reason: Firefox spell checker not that hot
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-28-2009, 07:35 AM
 
Location: Montrose, CA
3,031 posts, read 7,897,088 times
Reputation: 1926
Quote:
Originally Posted by lovesMountains View Post
God certainly doesn't need me to speak for him, but I do know he has not forsaken a single person on this earth - including that poor child.
God: Dear child I'm here with you, I won't forsake you!
Starving child: God, I'm so hungry I'm dying, please help me!
God: Sorry, no can do. But I'll sit here with you until you die.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-28-2009, 08:37 AM
 
3,086 posts, read 5,578,940 times
Reputation: 968
Quote:
Originally Posted by aerotallica View Post
I am not blaming him for the girls death,I am blaming him for just letting her die and wondering why he lets such attrocities in the world happen when he could do something about it if he was so powerful and great.I have to write the posts the way I do so I can try and be on the same planet as you,so you understand my view easier.No I don't believe there is a God and if I wasn't talking to you I wouldn't look at that picture and think that is Gods fault,I would think it is human fault,but we have to question your reason to believe in the beliefs you do because you seem to believe he fixes everything when there is absolutly no evidence that he does.
If you don't think it's God's fault, rather human's fault, than I guess we are on the same planet. I agree with you. I've already told you I don't believe God fixes everything.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spotted1 View Post
There's been a ridiculous amount of threads over whether or not the ideology of an all seeing/all knowing/blah blah blah deity and the ideology of free will can actually co-exist.
I agree.

Quote:
then he ought to intervene .....
If you want Him to intervene, let Him.

Quote:
You know, call me petty, but it seems to me God should start with the BIG FISH and worry about my choice of attire after he manages to take care of things like say.. poverty.. famine.. war.. If God's worried about my britches - he's a dumb---. And either way, somebody's life is more valuable than pants. To say otherwise is atrocious, man.
I think you got the point, even though it appears that you are trying to avoid it. If you don't want "free will", you can't even choose your pants.

Quote:
Famine was responsible for the starving child. Human hands only have so many abilities.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-28-2009, 09:27 AM
 
27,903 posts, read 33,603,545 times
Reputation: 4020
Quote:
Originally Posted by SuSuSushi View Post
God: Dear child I'm here with you, I won't forsake you!
Starving child: God, I'm so hungry I'm dying, please help me!
God: Sorry, no can do. But I'll sit here with you until you die.
God: I'll go visit and see what the people living in glass houses are thinking about while you starve.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-28-2009, 09:30 AM
 
27,903 posts, read 33,603,545 times
Reputation: 4020
The amazing mentality of people who would rather sit cozy at their computer desk and complain about something they don't even believe in. In fact they seek out people to complain about this god that doesn't exist while they look at pictures of starving children. How much logic is in that stone throwers?

Ohh that's right. You are just trying to spread "truth".
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2018, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top