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Old 01-28-2009, 09:33 AM
 
3,086 posts, read 5,574,309 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GCSTroop View Post
I cannot fathom, for the life of me, how people can attribute such rather petty things in their lives to divine intervention. Do people really think that a God went out of his way to help someone win a sporting event but forgot about that child in Africa? Do people really think that God answered their prayers of getting that job but forgot about that child in Africa? Do people really think that God interacts in the most petty of ways, interfering, making things better, caring, loving and nurturing his "children" here on the North American, European, and parts of the Asian continents but forgets about Africa all too conveniently?
I hear what you're saying.. we here in North America are pretty petty with our needs or desires sometimes. We pray for the most trivial, selfish things... and complain when we have the least discomfort.

Honestly, Troop, I don't know why we have it so good here while others in Third World countries are dying from starvation or other reasons. The questions you ask are questions we all have. But I do not believe for a moment that God is favoring us over them.. that He is nurturing and caring for our trivial needs while ignoring a starving child. "He sends rain on the just and on the unjust". This is life.. this is the earth we live on, tainted by sin and greed. This is the result of allowing mankind to have free will (temporarily). God will hold each one accountable.

And to say that God is ignoring those in Third World countries isn't true. I have heard experiences of miraculous answered prayer from people in dire need.. experiences that make our own answered prayers pale in comparison. (Not that any answered prayer is greater or of more value than another tho!) But why do good things happen to bad people, and vice versa? Why do wicked government officials prosper while their innocent citizens die? Why does God appear to intervene at times, but allow some to suffer?

I don't know.. I'm glad I am not God.

But this is not the end result... God has a better place prepared. I know that most unbelievers on this board will scoff at this and say "what kind of comfort is that to a child torturously starving".. but it IS a comfort, it is a reality. That child is in a better place of no starvation and no hungry vultures.

Quote:
I think what bothers me the most when I hear people talk about how God interacts in their life is the petty, self-centered and egotistical way that they do it while simultaneously distancing themselves from pictures such as that. I think the anger you are seeing is reflected more upon those who hear people attributing God with all of these 'wondrous' things and yet there's nothing to be seen or heard from when a vulture is about to eat a child.
Yes.. mankind is often self-centered. We ALL need to stop arguing who caused the need (as was mentioned) and do what we can to help.
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Old 01-28-2009, 09:48 AM
 
Location: Montrose, CA
3,031 posts, read 7,889,427 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigJon3475 View Post
How much logic is in that stone throwers?
Generally, atheists don't go about trumpeting about their charity work. We just do it because it needs doing, not because a church or a pastor or a religion says we have to. And we don't try to "convert" people to our way of thinking before or during that help.
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Old 01-28-2009, 10:05 AM
 
27,903 posts, read 33,563,609 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SuSuSushi View Post
Generally, atheists don't go about trumpeting about their charity work. We just do it because it needs doing, not because a church or a pastor or a religion says we have to. And we don't try to "convert" people to our way of thinking before or during that help.
And then summarily go to seek out people to argue with them over something you do not even believe in... or that's the claim at least. You don't believe in boogie men do you? Are you on a forum looking for people that do?
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Old 01-28-2009, 10:10 AM
 
Location: South Africa
5,563 posts, read 6,168,231 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigJon3475 View Post
And then summarily go to seek out people to argue with them over something you do not even believe in... or that's the claim at least. You don't believe in boogie men do you? Are you on a forum looking for people that do?
applause!
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Old 01-28-2009, 10:12 AM
 
Location: Blankity-blank!
11,449 posts, read 13,971,291 times
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"From Cg
But this is not the end result... God has a better place prepared. I know that most unbelievers on this board will scoff at this and say "what kind of comfort is that to a child torturously starving".. but it IS a comfort, it is a reality. That child is in a better place of no starvation and no hungry vultures."


It's a comfort to the believers, which makes the situation acceptable.
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Old 01-28-2009, 10:14 AM
 
Location: The #1 sunshine state, Arizona.
12,172 posts, read 15,063,095 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigJon3475 View Post
And then summarily go to seek out people to argue with them over something you do not even believe in... or that's the claim at least. You don't believe in boogie men do you? Are you on a forum looking for people that do?
Funny you should mention the boogie man as he is another character man has created.
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Old 01-28-2009, 10:16 AM
 
27,903 posts, read 33,563,609 times
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So really you just feel the need to oppress the people who believe in god? Not any of the other "man made" characters. Some people call that religious persecution.... Just saying...
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Old 01-28-2009, 10:57 AM
 
Location: Montrose, CA
3,031 posts, read 7,889,427 times
Reputation: 1925
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigJon3475 View Post
And then summarily go to seek out people to argue with them over something you do not even believe in... or that's the claim at least. You don't believe in boogie men do you? Are you on a forum looking for people that do?
No, because there's no idiots beating on my door trying to convince me of the existence of a boogie man, or interrupting my dinner with phone calls telling me there's a boogie man, or trying to get the boogie man into government laws, or telling me that the book the boogie man wrote is the only truth and that the boogie man will kill me if I don't believe in him.
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Old 01-28-2009, 11:41 AM
 
Location: Victoria, BC.
30,046 posts, read 30,801,451 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigJon3475 View Post
So really you just feel the need to oppress the people who believe in god? Not any of the other "man made" characters. Some people call that religious persecution.... Just saying...
In case you haven't noticed this thread is not about you and your imagined persecution.
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Old 01-28-2009, 12:01 PM
 
Location: US
81 posts, read 131,332 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ComeBack_Kid View Post
I am genuinely curious to see if anyone here who has any measure of faith in any kind of God can explain this. Lets not even think about the holocaust or other mass genocides, all the wars carried out in the name of religion, the murder, rape etc. JUST EXPLAIN THIS PICTURE:



This picture, by noted photographer Kevin Carter, won the Pulitzer Prize in 1994. He took it during a famine in Sudan, Africa. The girl in the picture, near death, is attempting to crawl to a United Nations Food camp located a kilometre away. The vulture behind her is waiting for her to die, so it can eat her, as vultures do when they sense animals near death.

Photographer Kevin Carter left the area immediately after taking the picture, and workers at the United Nations food camp said that on that day no girl of that size came into the camp after the time the photo was taken. We can rationally assume that this child met the fate of so many other children in Africa: starvation and a slow agonizing death. 3 months after the photo was taken, Kevin Carter committed suicide, blaming the "agony and guilt" he felt over doing nothing to help the girl.

SO my question is: IF A SO-CALLED GOD ALLOWS THIS, WHY SHOULD ANYONE WORSHIP OR EVEN RESPECT THAT GOD?!

Make no mistake about it, this kind of thing is happening EVERY. SINGLE. DAY around the world. Innocent children are dying ever single day.

I Would like to hear a logical answer from anyone. "God works in mysterious ways" is not an answer. How about real logic, perhaps by someone with a real college education? Just tell me why I should not just believe in, but worship and obey any God who allows this torture of the innocent.

ANYONE?

You are valid in your concern, ComeBack_Kid.

Any critically thinking person must assume this argument when dealing with the absurdities of a supposedly omnipotent god. Any argument from a theist point of view must necessarily follow under no logic, but through rationalization and insubstantial claims on the Nature of their God.

In other words, they kind of just make things up in order to justify their inactive personal deity...

Why is this so? Is the work of God too complex to be understood by man in the present, and even the long run? Then why personify him in belief that he will intervene in your life and make the red light turn green in time?

Or save your mother from breast cancer? Or help your amputated limb grow back? Wait? God won't do that last part, will he. Is it because theist expectation is self-limiting, going no more beyond the bounds of probability than is necessary to praise God for a statistical effect which would take place regardless of prayer?

Yes, that is why.

In closing, I submit to you two bits of eloquent and relevant poetry and prose:

Can omniscient God who,
Knows the future find,
The omnipotence to,
Change His future mind?
-Karen Owens


Is [God] willing to prevent evil, but not able? then is he impotent. Is he able, but not willing? then is he malevolent. Is he both able and willing? whence then is evil?"-Epicurus.


For any argument regarding the Karen Owens paradox, I submit to Christians the following contradictions to address beforehand...

Quote:
Does God Change his mind? No.
Numbers 23:19 (NIV)
God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of man, that he should change his mind.
1 Samuel 15:29 (KJV)
And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent: for he is not a man, that he should repent.
James 1:17 (KJV)
Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

Wait, God DOES change his mind.
Exodus 32:14 (NIV)
Then the LORD relented and did not bring on his people the disaster he had threatened.
1 Samuel 15:35 (KJV)
And Samuel came no more to see Saul until the day of his death: nevertheless Samuel mourned for Saul: and the LORD repented that he had made Saul king over Israel.
Genesis 6:6 (KJV)
And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
Numbers 14:20 (KJV)
And the LORD said, "I have pardoned according to thy word."
Perhaps it is wrong to invoke the infallible Christian God in this argument. After all, he is the most prolific abortionist of all**, not to mention a genocidal megalomaniac, to say the least.

Quote:
God on murdering [babies] and the value of children
Leviticus 27:6
If it is a person between one month and five years, set the value of a male at five shekels of silver and that of a female at three shekels of silver.
[NOTE: Babies have just monetary value, not moral value, and no value is placed on fetuses or babies less than one month old.]
Hosea 13:16
... because they have rebelled against their God. They will fall by the sword; their little ones will be dashed to the ground, their pregnant women ripped open.
Psalm 137:8-9
O daughter of Babylon, who art to be destroyed; happy shall he be, that rewardeth thee as thou hast served us. Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.
**50% of all human conception end in spontaneous abortion, when the body rejects the zygote, usually without a woman even realizing she was pregnant. 20% of all pregnancy ends in miscarriage. -Sam Harris

Last edited by anaarkh; 01-28-2009 at 12:30 PM..
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