U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
 
Old 01-28-2009, 11:59 AM
 
Location: Blankity-blank!
11,449 posts, read 13,913,395 times
Reputation: 6875

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by BigJon3475 View Post
So really you just feel the need to oppress the people who believe in god? Not any of the other "man made" characters. Some people call that religious persecution.... Just saying...
No one is being oppressed. The thread is about the photo in post #1.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 01-28-2009, 12:05 PM
 
4,047 posts, read 4,374,547 times
Reputation: 1321
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeekerSA View Post
The premise of my previous post was to point out the hypocrisy of the poster and it can be summed up in one of Jesus' teachings:
Judge not, in the same way you measure it out, it will be measured back to you.

Couldn't this also summarize the hypocrisy of God in many peoples' belief systems? He doesn't do anything for the innocent sufferers but supposedly is judging us for not doing anything either? (despite the fact that he has infinitely more resources to help than I do). I guess to determine who gets to judge the other, it boils down to who has the power to smite the other.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-28-2009, 12:12 PM
 
Location: Kentucky
1,090 posts, read 1,952,611 times
Reputation: 607
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigJon3475 View Post
So really you just feel the need to oppress the people who believe in god? Not any of the other "man made" characters. Some people call that religious persecution.... Just saying...
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-28-2009, 12:44 PM
 
Location: US
81 posts, read 131,020 times
Reputation: 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by anaarkh View Post
You are valid in your concern, ComeBack_Kid.

Any critically thinking person must assume this argument when dealing with the absurdities of a supposedly omnipotent god. Any argument from a theist point of view must necessarily follow under no logic, but through rationalization and insubstantial claims on the Nature of their God.

In other words, they kind of just make things up in order to justify their inactive personal deity...

Why is this so? Is the work of God too complex to be understood by man in the present, and even the long run? Then why personify him in belief that he will intervene in your life and make the red light turn green in time?

Or save your mother from breast cancer? Or help your amputated limb grow back? Wait? God won't do that last part, will he. Is it because theist expectation is self-limiting, going no more beyond the bounds of probability than is necessary to praise God for a statistical effect which would take place regardless of prayer?

Yes, that is why.

In closing, I submit to you two bits of eloquent and relevant poetry and prose:

Can omniscient God who,
Knows the future find,
The omnipotence to,
Change His future mind?
-Karen Owens


Is [God] willing to prevent evil, but not able? then is he impotent. Is he able, but not willing? then is he malevolent. Is he both able and willing? whence then is evil?"-Epicurus.


For any argument regarding the Karen Owens paradox, I submit to Christians the following contradictions to address beforehand...



Perhaps it is wrong to invoke the infallible Christian God in this argument. After all, he is the most prolific abortionist of all**, not to mention a genocidal megalomaniac, to say the least.



**50% of all human conception end in spontaneous abortion, when the body rejects the zygote, usually without a woman even realizing she was pregnant. 20% of all pregnancy ends in miscarriage. -Sam Harris
I clearly address the topic while halfway trolling for a debate otherwise... Anyoneeeeeee?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-28-2009, 03:52 PM
 
Location: Mississippi
6,715 posts, read 12,038,211 times
Reputation: 4273
Quote:
Originally Posted by cg81 View Post
Honestly, Troop, I don't know why we have it so good here while others in Third World countries are dying from starvation or other reasons. The questions you ask are questions we all have.
Actually, cg81, I think the answer is quite simple and should be to any believer who really ponders the situation although they may not like the answer.

To me, it's very obvious that if we have "free will" as so many suggest and if God exists than he simply does not interfere at all with our lives. He does not stop murderers from murdering, he does not help Tommy with his homework, he does not save starving children from being eaten and he does not make vehicles swerve out of the way to save your life - all of those things that people attribute to God are merely the result of living in a "free will" world.

I brought up the idea of "free will" because one must think about how pre-deterministic everything would be if God actually meddled in the affairs of humans. Let's say that God answered a prayer/altered the outcome of one event for every human being on Earth. Considering the fact that we have 6 billion people on Earth (not to mention the billions -possibly trillions - that have lived before us) that's a lot of influence on world events.

Think about it this way. Imagine if God had stopped the 9/11 hijackers. I don't know... Let's say he induced them to go to Uncle Tony's Pizza Parlor across the bridge in New Jersey and they ran into some trouble with Guido and his buddies and they all ended up becoming fish food at the bottom of the Hudson River. Let's just say that happened - that 9/11 never occurred and the interference and 'chance' encounter was at the discretion of God. God put Guido and his goons in the right place at the right time to intervene.

Now, that's all fine and dandy until you really start to think about it. Because in order for God to have intervened in the way he did he would have had to alter Guido and his goons' actions to all decide to go to Uncle Tony's Pizza Parlor in New Jersey. This could very well lead to a variety of outcomes that were unnecessarily triggered in Guido and the other goons' lives. Maybe one of them, we'll call him Salvatore, had to call home to his rather annoying and pesty wife who became furious at him for not being at dinner. This was the last straw in the marriage because he always skips out on dinner. Now, they're getting divorced and their 3 kids - Marie, Joey, and Sal Jr. have to make decisions in their lives based on the outcomes of those events.

BUT! We haven't even gotten to the good stuff yet. Imagine now that since the 9/11 hijackers had their plans altered what that would mean for the approximately 3,000 other people inside the buildings, airplanes, etc... That would mean that events that COULD have happened in each person's life as a result of the tragedy (now intervened with) would no longer happen and the actions and reactions of loved ones to the deaths of their friends/family would now be altered.

On top of that, it would then change the course of a multitude of other events! The world, as a whole, would not have had their minds and attitudes changed about the world of terrorism, America would most likely not be in Afghanistan (and probably Iraq), neither would Britain, Japan and a few other countries - all decisions made as the outcome of these events were induced because of 9/11.

So, just imagine if God intervened in everything how particularly sloppy it would be. Sure, it's God, and God can control everything, right? Well, that's fine but I don't see God intervening in people's lives because to do so would trigger events that would otherwise violate the free will of the individual as well as a variety of other individual's around them. So, even if God were able to keep this master thesis of an idea under control, by this point in time, given all of human interaction (with just one single answered prayer or intervention for every human being) I think it'd be pretty safe to say we're not acting upon free will anymore and that free will would simply be an illusion.

Thus, the answer is quite clear to me. If there is a God that exists he does not answer prayers, he does not intervene in people's lives and, yes, he stays utterly silent at people's worst moments. To me, that's the only answer that makes sense. In other words, God doesn't ignore anyone, he stays silent with everyone to truly allow us a free-will world. Thus, things we attribute to God's love are just coincidental factors of living in a free-will world.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-28-2009, 05:09 PM
 
Location: Blankity-blank!
11,449 posts, read 13,913,395 times
Reputation: 6875
Quote:
Originally Posted by GCSTroop View Post
Actually, cg81, I think the answer is quite simple and should be to any believer who really ponders the situation although they may not like the answer.

To me, it's very obvious that if we have "free will" as so many suggest and if God exists than he simply does not interfere at all with our lives. He does not stop murderers from murdering, he does not help Tommy with his homework, he does not save starving children from being eaten and he does not make vehicles swerve out of the way to save your life - all of those things that people attribute to God are merely the result of living in a "free will" world.

I brought up the idea of "free will" because one must think about how pre-deterministic everything would be if God actually meddled in the affairs of humans. Let's say that God answered a prayer/altered the outcome of one event for every human being on Earth. Considering the fact that we have 6 billion people on Earth (not to mention the billions -possibly trillions - that have lived before us) that's a lot of influence on world events.

Think about it this way. Imagine if God had stopped the 9/11 hijackers. I don't know... Let's say he induced them to go to Uncle Tony's Pizza Parlor across the bridge in New Jersey and they ran into some trouble with Guido and his buddies and they all ended up becoming fish food at the bottom of the Hudson River. Let's just say that happened - that 9/11 never occurred and the interference and 'chance' encounter was at the discretion of God. God put Guido and his goons in the right place at the right time to intervene.

Now, that's all fine and dandy until you really start to think about it. Because in order for God to have intervened in the way he did he would have had to alter Guido and his goons' actions to all decide to go to Uncle Tony's Pizza Parlor in New Jersey. This could very well lead to a variety of outcomes that were unnecessarily triggered in Guido and the other goons' lives. Maybe one of them, we'll call him Salvatore, had to call home to his rather annoying and pesty wife who became furious at him for not being at dinner. This was the last straw in the marriage because he always skips out on dinner. Now, they're getting divorced and their 3 kids - Marie, Joey, and Sal Jr. have to make decisions in their lives based on the outcomes of those events.

BUT! We haven't even gotten to the good stuff yet. Imagine now that since the 9/11 hijackers had their plans altered what that would mean for the approximately 3,000 other people inside the buildings, airplanes, etc... That would mean that events that COULD have happened in each person's life as a result of the tragedy (now intervened with) would no longer happen and the actions and reactions of loved ones to the deaths of their friends/family would now be altered.

On top of that, it would then change the course of a multitude of other events! The world, as a whole, would not have had their minds and attitudes changed about the world of terrorism, America would most likely not be in Afghanistan (and probably Iraq), neither would Britain, Japan and a few other countries - all decisions made as the outcome of these events were induced because of 9/11.

So, just imagine if God intervened in everything how particularly sloppy it would be. Sure, it's God, and God can control everything, right? Well, that's fine but I don't see God intervening in people's lives because to do so would trigger events that would otherwise violate the free will of the individual as well as a variety of other individual's around them. So, even if God were able to keep this master thesis of an idea under control, by this point in time, given all of human interaction (with just one single answered prayer or intervention for every human being) I think it'd be pretty safe to say we're not acting upon free will anymore and that free will would simply be an illusion.

Thus, the answer is quite clear to me. If there is a God that exists he does not answer prayers, he does not intervene in people's lives and, yes, he stays utterly silent at people's worst moments. To me, that's the only answer that makes sense. In other words, God doesn't ignore anyone, he stays silent with everyone to truly allow us a free-will world. Thus, things we attribute to God's love are just coincidental factors of living in a free-will world.
Interesting post. Your posts usually are. I'm highly curious how can anyone from Mississippi have the courage to post such opinions. Having read many of your posts in various threads I sometimes get the sneaking suspicion you are actually a believer (Mississippi!) and writing a book dealing with hard questions about god and his "strange ways". Where else can one gather so many hardened attitudes (using logic and reason) about god's cruelty, and non-existence, than on these forums? Here one can find the questions that will baffle the usual christian.
I'm stuck on your final paragraph.
"If there is a god..."(!) If
How can god not ignore and stay silent at the same time? Isn't that a contradiction.
If the ideas you put forth in the closing, then wouldn't it be more accurate that the followers (priests, rabbis, evangelists, etc.) of god should preach correctly:
-contrary to popular belief god does not answer prayer, nor does god care about your worst moments. Consequently, prayer or believing in miracles is a waste of time.
-god does not value each and every life, and the way we value (or devalue) life should be also our free-will without any fear of revenge from god.
-god demonstrates no love in this world, but we are free to love without restrictions.
If these concepts were preached then the opinions about the situation in the photo may be quite different.

Also, I wouldn't call a world with or without god, a free will world. It's just existence.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-28-2009, 05:14 PM
 
2,633 posts, read 4,449,739 times
Reputation: 586
No point in calling it god then.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-28-2009, 05:15 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
21,263 posts, read 20,865,688 times
Reputation: 9950
Quote:
Originally Posted by ComeBack_Kid View Post
I am genuinely curious to see if anyone here who has any measure of faith in any kind of God can explain this.
Explain what? It's tragic.

Quote:
This picture, by noted photographer Kevin Carter, won the Pulitzer Prize in 1994. He took it during a famine in Sudan, Africa. The girl in the picture, near death, is attempting to crawl to a United Nations Food camp located a kilometre away. The vulture behind her is waiting for her to die, so it can eat her, as vultures do when they sense animals near death.

Photographer Kevin Carter left the area immediately after taking the picture, and workers at the United Nations food camp said that on that day no girl of that size came into the camp after the time the photo was taken. We can rationally assume that this child met the fate of so many other children in Africa: starvation and a slow agonizing death. 3 months after the photo was taken, Kevin Carter committed suicide, blaming the "agony and guilt" he felt over doing nothing to help the girl.
To be perfectly honest, before I ever read this paragraph, I wondered what he'd done after he took the picture. My question is, why do people blame God for what human beings are responsible for?

Quote:
Just tell me why I should not just believe in, but worship and obey any God who allows this torture of the innocent.
What specifically should God have done in this instance? Do we as human beings not have the intelligence and decency to keep this kind of thing from happening? If God is going to give us free will at all, He has to step back and let us use it. The only other option would be for Him to control every decision any of us ever made. That would solve some problems, but it would create others.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-28-2009, 05:27 PM
 
Location: Kentucky
1,090 posts, read 1,952,611 times
Reputation: 607
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
Explain what? It's tragic.

To be perfectly honest, before I ever read this paragraph, I wondered what he'd done after he took the picture. My question is, why do people blame God for what human beings are responsible for?

What specifically should God have done in this instance? Do we as human beings not have the intelligence and decency to keep this kind of thing from happening? If God is going to give us free will at all, He has to step back and let us use it. The only other option would be for Him to control every decision any of us ever made. That would solve some problems, but it would create others.
It seems you missed like.. I dunno 13 some odd pages of this thread. The scenario in the picture was due to a natural disaster - famine brought on by drought. It was not caused by man, but by nature. Free will is essentially a useless arguement in this thread because the circumstance was not created by human beings. It was natural. So in being a natural disaster (let's reiterate that a natural disaster is not a manmade disaster), it was not in man's control to stop this event. Men can not create rainclouds and thunderstorms. A supernatural being, like the God of the Christian faith, should have been able to intervened and prevented the suffering (and eventual death).

Since the suffering occured, we're left with 3 possibilities. A) God(s) doesn't/don't exist, men did the best they could, but suffering and death are inevitable. B) God(s) exists, but did not intervene even though he could have because he simply doesn't care. C) God(s) exists, but does/do not have the capabilities to intervene in humans lives on earth. If B & C are the case, then are they actually a god worth your time and worship?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-28-2009, 05:51 PM
 
Location: Mid-Atlantic
22,706 posts, read 21,750,727 times
Reputation: 27757
My God doesn't allow or disallow anything.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2018, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top