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Old 01-29-2009, 07:02 PM
 
Location: Maryland
3,540 posts, read 5,968,453 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bill545 View Post
Have struggled w/this one a time or 3. How does a God with a love and forgiving nature so off the charts we can't even comprehend it send those He loves to unbearable pain, misery etc forever?

Typically the responses I get are along the lines of "because you made the wrong choice by turning against God" (or not believing in Him etc). My contention is that's weak because it was a largely uninformed choice...ie was made based on a severe lack of knowledge and/or understanding of the real deal. ie it's one thing to talk about Heaven and Hell in a detached philosophical way, but the concepts of eternal bliss or it's opposite, even for a brief moment, never mind "forever" - are concepts we cannot truly grasp (in fact you can add the concept of "forever" in there as well). So here we are, ill-informed, no experience or true insight into either "place," and we're going to be condemned forever in ways we don't even get by the one who loves us more than we can even comprehend??

Sounds pretty dicey to me.
I will predict that you'll receive as many opinions as there are Christians.

There are those who believe most of us are doomed, others believe there is no hell, and every opinion in between.

I believe that our actions will echo in eternity.
But God is merciful, and wants to forgive us.

If there is anyone in hell, it's of their own choice. They want to be there.
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Old 01-29-2009, 07:18 PM
 
Location: US
81 posts, read 131,214 times
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May this help you.
I made this argument in my thread on the ten commandments...

The case at hand here is inherent belief. If you were born to interpret complex "spiritual" events and reverence for the profundity of natural phenomena as Allah, and the scripture you are raised upon is that of the Qu'ran, and all your friends and family support and uphold your belief, are you are on the path to eternal damnation, by coincidence of birth? Even if you wish well the lives of those you do not know, but lead a content life otherwise, and are a religious moderate, which is a substantial minority of practicing Muslims? This is not a direct answer to the point, but a pretty convincing supplement.

On the subject of rational thought, the time-line on which a person spends his life, in the frame of all time, past, present, and future, is clearly a small frame. Assuming you are a religious moderate and do not believe the earth to be a few thousand years old, [It is several billion years old], the few decades [average] we have here on earth is minuscule compared to the indefinable phantom called eternity.

So to you eternity is defined as the following...

Since eternity is an abstract concept, it's only possible to think critically about it when you think of it in realistic terms... 70 years of conciousness.. then death... and not according to the quality of your life or your life's works but by belief in a single concept of a text conceived between 1400BC and 1700AD, depending on which Christian sect you follow, you will ascend into a land of eternal praise for your creator or descend into a lake of fire with weeping and gnashing of teeth? [There is no fully developed teaching about hell in the New Testament, though there are frequent mentions of it. Only in the course of later church history was it elaborated into official church doctrine.]

Eternity, the number multipliable by the age of the known existence of space and time itself by the age of the known existence of space and time itself, indefinitely, and on, and on, forever, and ever. 1,000,000 by 1,000,000 for ever and ever. For a man to hold firm beliefs in his life and to hold no faults of character otherwise, is not deserving of eternal punishment by mere circumstance of birth and the "wrong" belief. By this logic, the idea of Hell is clearly at fault. Anything else is armchair ratiocination to justify faulty texts...
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Old 01-29-2009, 09:03 PM
 
7,654 posts, read 9,687,746 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anaarkh View Post
May this help you.
I made this argument in my thread on the ten commandments...

The case at hand here is inherent belief. If you were born to interpret complex "spiritual" events and reverence for the profundity of natural phenomena as Allah, and the scripture you are raised upon is that of the Qu'ran, and all your friends and family support and uphold your belief, are you are on the path to eternal damnation, by coincidence of birth? Even if you wish well the lives of those you do not know, but lead a content life otherwise, and are a religious moderate, which is a substantial minority of practicing Muslims? This is not a direct answer to the point, but a pretty convincing supplement.

On the subject of rational thought, the time-line on which a person spends his life, in the frame of all time, past, present, and future, is clearly a small frame. Assuming you are a religious moderate and do not believe the earth to be a few thousand years old, [It is several billion years old], the few decades [average] we have here on earth is minuscule compared to the indefinable phantom called eternity.

So to you eternity is defined as the following...

Since eternity is an abstract concept, it's only possible to think critically about it when you think of it in realistic terms... 70 years of conciousness.. then death... and not according to the quality of your life or your life's works but by belief in a single concept of a text conceived between 1400BC and 1700AD, depending on which Christian sect you follow, you will ascend into a land of eternal praise for your creator or descend into a lake of fire with weeping and gnashing of teeth? [There is no fully developed teaching about hell in the New Testament, though there are frequent mentions of it. Only in the course of later church history was it elaborated into official church doctrine.]

Eternity, the number multipliable by the age of the known existence of space and time itself by the age of the known existence of space and time itself, indefinitely, and on, and on, forever, and ever. 1,000,000 by 1,000,000 for ever and ever. For a man to hold firm beliefs in his life and to hold no faults of character otherwise, is not deserving of eternal punishment by mere circumstance of birth and the "wrong" belief. By this logic, the idea of Hell is clearly at fault. Anything else is armchair ratiocination to justify faulty texts...
The Bible tells us that there is a way that seems right unto a man, but the end of those ways are the ways of death. Jesus Christ, "No man comes unto the Father but by me."

Salvation is a gift that is given freely unto all men by God. The problem is, most of this world refuse to receive His gift.
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Old 01-30-2009, 11:41 AM
 
Location: US
81 posts, read 131,214 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Campbell34 View Post
The Bible tells us that there is a way that seems right unto a man, but the end of those ways are the ways of death. Jesus Christ, "No man comes unto the Father but by me."

Salvation is a gift that is given freely unto all men by God. The problem is, most of this world refuse to receive His gift.
In other words, you're saying your logic is deeply entrenched, skewed, and obscured by the religious apologies of your life-taught creed?
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Old 01-30-2009, 11:51 AM
BST
 
Location: Powell, TN
451 posts, read 1,021,666 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anaarkh View Post
In other words, you're saying your logic is deeply entrenched, skewed, and obscured by the religious apologies of your life-taught creed?
Dang skippy! Last I looked, that was not illegal unless my logic drove me to take action that caused someone harm. It's been my experience that faith has actually improved my citizenship...and my rapport with those whom I encounter, regardless of that person's creed. (It's that whole "love your enemies" thing.)
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Old 01-30-2009, 12:01 PM
 
Location: US
81 posts, read 131,214 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BST View Post
Dang skippy! Last I looked, that was not illegal unless my logic drove me to take action that caused someone harm. It's been my experience that faith has actually improved my citizenship...and my rapport with those whom I encounter, regardless of that person's creed. (It's that whole "love your enemies" thing.)
Not harmful, but nothing that could not be attributed to genuine altruism, which is a natural inclination. Do you attribute your appreciation of your closest relationships to your faith? What about your favorite meals?
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Old 01-30-2009, 12:07 PM
BST
 
Location: Powell, TN
451 posts, read 1,021,666 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anaarkh View Post
Not harmful, but nothing that could not be attributed to genuine altruism, which is a natural inclination. Do you attribute your appreciation of your closest relationships to your faith? What about your favorite meals?
My appreciation for my spouse...yes, it is tied directly to my faith for there are many teachings in the Bible about how marriage foreshadows heaven. It also helps that she and I are likeminded in matters of faith and worldviews.

My favorite meals...not so much. Although there is a snack food named after a verse in the Bible because it's ingredients are all of the foods listed in that verse. Ezekiel 4:9...but I digress.
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Old 01-30-2009, 12:12 PM
 
Location: Blankity-blank!
11,449 posts, read 13,941,294 times
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No one can go to hell until the construction of hell is completed. As a whole society is working on that now.
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Old 01-30-2009, 01:00 PM
 
3,651 posts, read 8,128,993 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BST View Post
Admittedly it's a tough one to swallow. Skeptics have a hard time accepting anything on faith. Understanding spiritual concepts do require a willingness to believe more than what your five senses tell you.

If that can't be quantified with one of the five senses, it probably seems like foolishness to you. That's OK...it's not the first time Christians have been called fools.
First off, "skeptic" and "atheist" are not interchangeable terms (despite many people's attempts to make it so). Also just an FYI that I am not an atheist.

And finally, I frankly pity anyone who doesn't believe in the existance of anything that can't be quantified w/the 5 senses (even most atheists will go beyond that - the intelligent ones, at least).


Quote:
Originally Posted by MontanaGuy View Post
It's my opinion that hell is meant to scare us into becoming Christians in much the same way that our legal system has instituted serious consequences if we commit a crime. The only difference is that if I am convicted of a crime I'm probably going to go to jail, depending on how serious it is, but no one is going to hell because there is no such thing.
I have considered that exact same line of thinking myself.
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Old 01-30-2009, 01:20 PM
 
3,651 posts, read 8,128,993 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by decafdave View Post
Well the main reason I actually believe in hell, simply is that God told us it exists. Now, that's enough of an argument for some and not enough for others but I don't believe that is what this thread is discussing.
Astute of you and a point worth clarifying: I am not sayin Hell doesn't exist per se. I am saying I have a hard time buying that any human being's soul spends eternity there.

Quote:
Modern "feel good" megachurchs of today really only focus on the loving side of God. They are correct in that God is loves all people and hope that all turn to him. The thing they de-emphasize is that God is also just.
So how is it just to ban someone you love - regardless of what they have done or how they have turned on you - to ETERNAL damnation? Punishment? Sure, understand that completely. Even "doing time" in hell, perhaps. But forever? That doesn't sound just to me; it sounds incredibly sadistic.

Quote:
He is holy, sinless, so when people sin they distance themselves from him. Because of his holy nature he cannot tolerate sinful people with him in heaven. I believe that to not accept Jesus Christ as savior (if you are a sinner of course) is a sin that God sends you to hell for.
I think that depends on the circumstances (which I suspect you are aware of given some of your other comments).


Quote:
Bill545, you use the argument that some people live in ignorance,
My point there really was more like people "live in ignorance"in this regard in general; ie not simply some people. What I mean is we can't really grasp existing forever in Heaven OR Hell. It's just too far beyond our means to grasp. Therefore asking us to live our lives/found on beliefs based on something we can't really grasp isn't terribly fair.

Quote:
well you don't seem very ignorant in the concept of heaven and hell and the death of Jesus Christ. Regardless of what happens to the natives on remote islands (that is a whole other discussion), you have heard the truth and are without excuse.
I disagree, based on what I just said above.



Quote:
Originally Posted by broadbill View Post
Hasn't it occurred to any of you that you might already in hell? Or heaven, for that matter?
...or purgatory. I suspect quite a few people have seriously considered this.

Quote:
for you folks who are discussing this with some preconceived notions...
we ALL have pre-conceived notions.

Last edited by joey2000; 01-30-2009 at 02:48 PM..
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