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Old 01-30-2009, 08:27 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anaarkh View Post
Campbell, the only reason you think you have a clue is thanks to the implementation of Hell as Church doctrine in the last few centuries. Thank Dante for his imaginative but [not Bible inspired] description of Hell as a main predecessor of the popular image of Hell. "Lake of fire" and "gnashing of teeth" in a few sporadic places in the New Testament is all you will see of a Hell in the Bible. The Old Testament does not even contain the word Hell, or mention of a judicial afterlife, torment, or eternal punishment.
You are almost completely correct:

1.)implementation of Hell as Church doctrine in the last few centuries. Correct. It was started by Augastine and Thomas Aquianis in 1245 and some time later became church doctrine in the RCC.

2.)Thank Dante for his imaginative but [not Bible inspired] description of Hell as a main predecessor of the popular image of Hell. Correct. Dante added fuel to the fire. No pun intended.

3.)The Old Testament does not even contain the word Hell, or mention of a judicial afterlife, torment, or eternal punishment. Very Correct, and I might add a little know fact to the promoters of eternal punishment.

4.)"Lake of fire" and "gnashing of teeth" in a few sporadic places in the New Testament is all you will see of a Hell in the Bible. Correct. Except the lake of fire isn't hell, it's the second death, and involves the death of the soul:

Re 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

So when Christians promote eternal punishment in hell fire they are confusing Hell, the grave with the second death with involves the lake of fire. Does the lake of fire burn for ever? Well for ever is another subject. For ever is the Hebrew word Olam and means 'from age to age.' Olam has a beginning and an end.
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Old 01-30-2009, 10:24 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sanspeur View Post
I really think the lake of fire, or hell if you prefer was a volcanic caldera which was probably conveniently used to throw wrong doers into in those days when sacrifice was a common practice, as for your demons, I hardly think those types of delusions are evidence of anything, let alone hell.
Yep I would have to agree that somehow way back somewhere in time, there no doubt were cultures who probably used real life volcanic calderas to throw people in who questioned the religio-political ruling class of the time. Somehow I think of some Polynesian scene of high priests throwing someone over the side of a volcano.
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Old 01-30-2009, 10:38 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MontanaGuy View Post
sanspeur wrote:

That's pretty much how I see it. Religion in general and the Bible in particular wanted to create a scenario in which people who misbehaved would have the hell scared out of them so they literally created hell in their imaginations. When you look at the descriptions of heaven and hell as described in the Bible you see two scenarios, one with streets paved with gold and the other with eternal torture. I would imagine that this was pretty powerful stuff for the uneducated common folk who lived in the days when the Bible was written. They did such a good job at writing it that it's still influencing people in the twenty first century.
I would definitely agree with much of what you said here. I think the Clergy at the 3rd & 4th centuries especially found it to be an excellent religio-polical tool for controlling the ignorant masses of those times. The superstition was certainly effective for other previous cultures , they figured why not us. In those early times and through the dark ages and the extension of the dark ages which I call the revolt (okay reformation, but don't by the reform thing), many were burned at the stake and murdered for trying to bring the truth on such matters as being discussed here.

People in past times had little or no education, unless you were of some nobility or such, you did'nt exactly have a chance. Even if you were edicated, you took your life in your hands even possessing a bible of any kind.

I think with the added value as has been mentioned of visual art aids such as Dante , etc which have already been mentioned, that greatly added to the dramatics on the subject. Fastforward to our times and Stephen King, X-Files, Twilight Zone, Outerlimits, Tales From the Crypt, One Step Beyond, etc , then you've only added massive volumes of fuel to these peoples Fire (pun intended) .
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Old 01-30-2009, 11:39 PM
 
Location: US
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Quote:
Originally Posted by effie briest View Post
to digress from all this digression:

main

nty
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Old 01-31-2009, 12:29 AM
 
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Okay Okay, I'll try to keep away from a lot of the bold lettering.

Going through a number of translations, I find it fascinating how most all render the word 'sheol' at Ecclesiastes 9:10 as simply 'grave'. Here's how it is rendered in the all favorite "Authorized King James Version"
Quote:
"Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest."
Here's how other translations will render the word 'sheol' in Ecc. 9:10

New King James Version &
21st Century King James Version - sheol = 'grave'

New International Version - sheol = 'grave'

New American Standard Bible - sheol = 'sheol'

The Amplified Bible - sheol = 'sheol'

The Message Bible - sheol = 'company of the dead'

New Living Transaltion - sheol = 'grave'

English Standard Version - sheol = 'Sheol'

Contemparary English Version - sheol = 'world of the dead'

New Century Version - sheol = 'grave'

American Standard Version - sheol = 'Sheol'

Darby Translation - sheol = 'Sheol'

Holman Christian Standard Bible - sheol = 'Sheol'

New International Reader's Version - sheol = 'Sheol'

Young's Literal Translation - sheol = 'Sheol'

New Jerusalem Bible - sheol = 'Sheol'

Biship's Bible - sheol = 'graue'

The Complete Jewish Bible - sheol = 'Sh'ol'

Cloverdale Bible - sheol = 'amoge the deed' (old english - among the dead)

The Geneva Bible - sheol = 'graue' ( old english - the grave)

Well the main point here is that most of these Bible translation won't render the Hebrew word 'sheol' as Hell as many of the translations do elsewhere. Reason ??? because it shoots down their "HellFire & Eternal Damnation Doctrine". Obviously you have to be in some kind of conscious afterlife in order to experience Hell (with all it's lovely consequences) according to most world's religions. But as we've clearly seen from Ecclesiastes 9 , the dead are just that, truly dead , not living. Hence it would shoot down their whole belief.

What they counted on is that most , well, english reader's would'nt take time to look things up and figure it out anyway. But we did and have.

To their credit, many of the translations which render the word there as 'sheol' also render it as the Hebrew 'sheol' consistantly throughout it's some 65 occurrances in the Hebrew or Old Testament.

Here's some interesting references to it's three separate translation inside the "Authorized King James Version". Of the 65 times it's translated in the "AKJV" , it is translated 31 times as "hell," 31 times as "grave," and 3 times as "pit". The Catholic Douay Version rendered the word 63 times as "hell," once as "pit,"and once as "death". Interestingly enough however, the "Catholic Douay" is the only translation of the major translations i could see, who had the actual virtual "TESTOSTERONE" to actually render the word in Ecc 9:10 as "Hell". But since they more than likely originally introduced the God dishonoring concept in the first place and the fact that the common people were not allowed at the beginning to have in their posession a copy of the bible, it probably was never considered to be an issue at the time anyway.

Hmmmmmmm Conspiracy ???

This leads me to another subject of what all and any religions do with what they believe to be the word of their God. Whether or not they believe their god made a mistake in the holy book and what Clergy/Theologians did later to correct their god/prophets mistakes.

Should be educational, but in another thread.
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Old 01-31-2009, 12:34 AM
 
Location: southern california
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not sure most lake of fires that i have encountered had a sandy named beach standing in the middle saying come on it.
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Old 01-31-2009, 07:15 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anaarkh View Post
nty
which one?
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Old 01-31-2009, 08:09 AM
 
7,654 posts, read 9,682,549 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sanspeur View Post
I really think the lake of fire, or hell if you prefer was a volcanic caldera which was probably conveniently used to throw wrong doers into in those days when sacrifice was a common practice, as for your demons, I hardly think those types of delusions are evidence of anything, let alone hell.
To my knowledge, I do not recall any active volcano's in or around Israel at the time the Bible was written, so I believe your belief of one being used to throw wrong doers into for sacrifice has little to do with any historical accounts. That is more of a myth, than you are now trying to present as evidence. The existance of demons on the other hand, do have historical accounts that are spoken of in history. Historical accounts can be offered as evidence. Do you have any historical accounts of a volcano being used in or around Israel for the purpose of human sacrifice?
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Old 01-31-2009, 08:43 AM
 
Location: Victoria, BC.
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You don't recall? How old are you anyway? There are many volcanoes in throughout the middle east, some of which I'm sure were active in those times. Global Volcanism Program | Volcanoes of the World | Volcanoes of the Middle East and the Indian Ocean | Arabia



There is no valid evidence of demons, only hearsay.
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Old 01-31-2009, 11:23 AM
 
7,654 posts, read 9,682,549 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sanspeur View Post
You don't recall? How old are you anyway? There are many volcanoes in throughout the middle east, some of which I'm sure were active in those times. Global Volcanism Program | Volcanoes of the World | Volcanoes of the Middle East and the Indian Ocean | Arabia



There is no valid evidence of demons, only hearsay.
You said they used volcanoes to toss people in for sacrifice. Do you have any evidence for this pratice during the time when the Bible was written? I don't recall anything like this in Middle East Studies.

There is a great deal of evidence for demons, there are programs on T.V. that speak of them, and many private people speak of them, including myself. Consider the link below.

Video
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