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Old 01-29-2009, 12:00 PM
 
4,669 posts, read 3,902,855 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anaarkh View Post
God also made a promise to Abraham--and led to the point where Muhammad, child of the child of promise [ Ishmael ], came in to begin Islam.
Origin Of Islam

With your argument I can justify the necessity of preaching the Law of Islam.
Except that Ishmael was not the child of the Promise. He was born to a handmaiden--not what God had promised.

And sorry...I just don't believe in the "law of islam".

Quote:

So by your reasoning, God came [likely around the 15th and 4th B.C. era [Old Testament]] and created odd things, and then God came back [6B.C. - 4A.D.] in the form of his son, killed himself, and now some things are still tought, while most odd things are ignored? Tricky Creator of the Universe, indeed!
I'm sorry...I'm just not sure I understand what you're saying.

I think you're asking, did God come and give the Law, then return and kill himself?

In a word...yeah. God handed down the Law to mankind through his prophets. He later took the form of man and sacrificed himself as an attonement for our sins. He took the place of the passover lamb that the Jews had to sacrifice every year.

Read the book of Hebrews. It's fascinating stuff and will explain it all.
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Old 01-29-2009, 12:05 PM
 
Location: Nashville, Tn
7,916 posts, read 16,402,170 times
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anaarkh wrote:
Quote:
You could quote those verses specifically if you read my original post, which includes them and many more absurdities.
Oh yeah, I didn't even notice that. I think it's my age catching up with me.
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Old 01-29-2009, 12:23 PM
 
Location: US
81 posts, read 131,057 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kdbrich View Post
In a word...yeah. God handed down the Law to mankind through his prophets. He later took the form of man and sacrificed himself as an attonement for our sins. He took the place of the passover lamb that the Jews had to sacrifice every year.

Read the book of Hebrews. It's fascinating stuff and will explain it all.
Ok, I can accept your intolerance of the religion and teachings of Islam. It is likely by this evidence that you were born into a region that teaches Christianity, and has led you to believe and assert, with all the capability of your resourceful mind, the veracity of the Bible.
Just to note, had you been born in Saudi Arabia, your argument would [in all likeliness] be the other way around, and I would still pose the same arguments, only I would dissect the Qu'ran.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kdbrich View Post
I'm sorry...I'm just not sure I understand what you're saying.

I think you're asking, did God come and give the Law, then return and kill himself?

In a word...yeah. God handed down the Law to mankind through his prophets. He later took the form of man and sacrificed himself as an attonement for our sins. He took the place of the passover lamb that the Jews had to sacrifice every year.

Read the book of Hebrews. It's fascinating stuff and will explain it all.
So God decided to sacrifice himself in atonement for the sins of all future humankind? Is this just second-hand teaching you have come to assert?

Is it not true that the Bible only states that Jesus was the son of God, that the trinity are one, and that he, Jesus, was crucified by the Romans?
Apparently, God will destroy everyone in an endless pit of hell...all except 144,000 of his favorites. [Jehovah's witness]

A loving Creator just isn't plausible in this scenario. What does it mean to you when God says that it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God" [Mark verses 17-25]?
Why would Jesus himself admit that very few find the narrow path? God creates sentient beings, while already knowing they will go to hell, but giving them the free will to ignore him? This is just moronic to take literally.

But God is a jealous loving, unjealous pith of jealous, isn't he? So why not believe he is a "malign thug" [Albert Einstein].
  1. GOD'S QUALITIES - 1 John 4:8
    God is love.
  2. GOD'S QUALITIES - 1 Corinthians 13:4
    Love is not jealous.
  3. GOD'S QUALITIES - Exodus 20:5
    "I, the Lord thy God, am a jealous God."
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Old 01-29-2009, 01:12 PM
 
4,669 posts, read 3,902,855 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anaarkh View Post
Ok, I can accept your intolerance of the religion and teachings of Islam. It is likely by this evidence that you were born into a region that teaches Christianity, and has led you to believe and assert, with all the capability of your resourceful mind, the veracity of the Bible.


Actually...no. I didn't become a Christian until I was 20 years old. I started reading the Bible and investigating Christianity at age 16. I had previously read through the book of mormon and was unconvinced. As a new Christian I was almos led astray to jehovahs witnesses, and have investigated the claims of islam over the past 15 years or so.

I'm sorry...I'm not convinced. But it's not because mommy and daddy taught me the evils of islam.

Quote:

Just to note, had you been born in Saudi Arabia, your argument would [in all likeliness] be the other way around, and I would still pose the same arguments, only I would dissect the Qu'ran.

And I believe that God still would have reached me with the truth. There are Christians in Saudi Arabia. The government just doesn't like to admit it.
Quote:

So God decided to sacrifice himself in atonement for the sins of all future humankind?
Yes.
Quote:

Is this just second-hand teaching you have come to assert?
Straight from the Bible--which is inspired by God.
Quote:

Is it not true that the Bible only states that Jesus was the son of God, that the trinity are one, and that he, Jesus, was crucified by the Romans?
Actually, the Book of Revelation, John's Gospel, and several prophecies regarding the nature of the Messiah are quite clear that Jesus is divine. There really is no argument about it.

As for the Trinity? The Bible does state that the Father is God, Jesus is God, the Holy Spirit is God. The concept is there.

And ultimately...the Romans were the ones that carreid out the crucifixion.
Quote:

Apparently, God will destroy everyone in an endless pit of hell...all except 144,000 of his favorites. [Jehovah's witness]
God will cast them into hell. But the Bible does not state that 144,000 will be in heaven. The witnesses are wrong. They've made a bunch of wrong prophecies over the years, and they're far enough from Biblical Christianity I would not consider them to be an accurate representation of Christianity.

Quote:

A loving Creator just isn't plausible in this scenario.
It's not just to do otherwise.
Quote:

What does it mean to you when God says that it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God" [Mark verses 17-25]?
Read the context. It's not about money, necessarily--as it's about the man's attittude toward his money. His worldly attittude will keep his heart impure.
Quote:


Why would Jesus himself admit that very few find the narrow path? God creates sentient beings, while already knowing they will go to hell, but giving them the free will to ignore him? This is just moronic to take literally.
Not really. God chose the Nation of Israel as his chosen people. He didn't say all of the surrounding nations could be His people--but just Israel.
Quote:


But God is a jealous loving, unjealous pith of jealous, isn't he? So why not believe he is a "malign thug" [Albert Einstein].

1. GOD'S QUALITIES - 1 John 4:8
God is love.
2. GOD'S QUALITIES - 1 Corinthians 13:4
Love is not jealous.
3. GOD'S QUALITIES - Exodus 20:5
"I, the Lord thy God, am a jealous God."
2 different types of jealousy. Man's jealousy is motivated by fear or coveting. God's is pure. He doesn't want us to exchange Him for a false idol.
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Old 01-29-2009, 03:01 PM
 
Location: US
81 posts, read 131,057 times
Reputation: 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by kdbrich View Post
Actually...no. I didn't become a Christian until I was 20 years old. I started reading the Bible and investigating Christianity at age 16. I had previously read through the book of mormon and was unconvinced. As a new Christian I was almos led astray to jehovahs witnesses, and have investigated the claims of islam over the past 15 years or so.

I'm sorry...I'm not convinced. But it's not because mommy and daddy taught me the evils of islam.
Darn, you got me with that precious gem. So you were raised acquainted with a faulty religious sect and returned to the primary religion thereof. Makes sense to me.


Quote:
Originally Posted by kdbrich View Post
Not really. God chose the Nation of Israel as his chosen people. He didn't say all of the surrounding nations could be His people--but just Israel.
So the Creator of the universe, in all it's unfathomnable complexity, rested on a very tiny nation in the Middle East to make his true self known, and the other religions are bastardizations? But that doesn't answer the conundrum of why God knowingly creates "souls" that will eternally experience anguish and torment to the worst degree imaginable. If we have the right to choose our path, why call God all-knowing? Did God know that two-thirds of his supposed creation would not believe in Jesus Christ? So God is deliberately created people who have honest opinions and mean well for their own lives' sake, and generally do no evil, but when they die, they will burn eternally in the worst way, because they were born in the wrong region of the world and believe the wrong story? Idiocy! Yet in the Christian bible it is laid out as fact.

I submit three quotes:

"How can you say burning someone alive forever is "just" or "fair" for everyone who hasn't accepted Jesus Christ? Even we humans fit the punishment to the crime. According to you, Christians, people are destined to be burned in Hell whether we are bad or not. Just being born into this world is grounds for being endlessly tortured. You say the punishment is the same regardless of the number of sins committed or how bad they were. This is not justice--this is insanity!"

"I could never torture people endlessly, especially my own children. How can you say that God will do that to His children? This seems hideous. You make God look like a monster worse than Hitler, not a loving Father Who would even die for His enemies!"


"If Hell is real and the greatest part of humanity went there, how could you HONESTLY say that 'Love NEVER fails?' Seems like Love fails most of the time according to your understanding of things." (I Cor. 13:8)


And for that matter, if Hell is real why didn't Moses warn about this fate in the Ten Commandments or the Mosaic Covenant consisting of over 600 laws, ordinances, and warnings? The Mosaic Law simply stated blessings and cursings IN THIS LIFETIME for failure to keep the Mosaic Law. Or anywhere in the Old Testament, for that matter. Hell is NOT in the Old Testament!
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Old 01-29-2009, 03:15 PM
 
4,669 posts, read 3,902,855 times
Reputation: 409
Quote:
Originally Posted by anaarkh View Post
Darn, you got me with that precious gem. So you were raised acquainted with a faulty religious sect and returned to the primary religion thereof. Makes sense to me.
Actually...I've mentioned it in the past on these boards, and I realize that my previous response might be a little unclear. I was raised catholic...attended mass each week...but had no real form of personal religious belief.

When I bought a Bible at age 16 my parents were shocked, questioning who's Bible it was that they found on the kitchen table one day.


Quote:


So the Creator of the universe, in all it's unfathomnable complexity, rested on a very tiny nation in the Middle East to make his true self known, and the other religions are bastardizations?


Actually, it was the promise that He made to Abraham. Go back and read that story in Genesis. He grew a mighty nation from Abraham's descendants.
Quote:


But that doesn't answer the conundrum of why God knowingly creates "souls" that will eternally experience anguish and torment to the worst degree imaginable. If we have the right to choose our path, why call God all-knowing? Did God know that two-thirds of his supposed creation would not believe in Jesus Christ? So God is deliberately created people who have honest opinions and mean well for their own lives' sake, and generally do no evil, but when they die, they will burn eternally in the worst way, because they were born in the wrong region of the world and believe the wrong story? Idiocy! Yet in the Christian bible it is laid out as fact.
Your choice. You can choose to go to the fire or not.
Quote:


I submit three quotes:

"How can you say burning someone alive forever is "just" or "fair" for everyone who hasn't accepted Jesus Christ? Even we humans fit the punishment to the crime. According to you, Christians, people are destined to be burned in Hell whether we are bad or not. Just being born into this world is grounds for being endlessly tortured. You say the punishment is the same regardless of the number of sins committed or how bad they were. This is not justice--this is insanity!"
The punishment is directly proportional to the one offended. God is infinite and eternal, so therefore the punishment is.
Quote:
"I could never torture people endlessly, especially my own children. How can you say that God will do that to His children? This seems hideous. You make God look like a monster worse than Hitler, not a loving Father Who would even die for His enemies!"
He doesn't do it to his own children. Yes...he created us...but ultimately you're a child of the one you serve. Most people in the world are children of the devil.
Quote:

"If Hell is real and the greatest part of humanity went there, how could you HONESTLY say that 'Love NEVER fails?' Seems like Love fails most of the time according to your understanding of things." (I Cor. 13:8)
I think it's a testimony to whether or not most of the world HAS love. I don't think they do.
Quote:

And for that matter, if Hell is real why didn't Moses warn about this fate in the Ten Commandments or the Mosaic Covenant consisting of over 600 laws, ordinances, and warnings? The Mosaic Law simply stated blessings and cursings IN THIS LIFETIME for failure to keep the Mosaic Law. Or anywhere in the Old Testament, for that matter. Hell is NOT in the Old Testament!
There are plenty of refernences in the OT to hell. It was certainly an OT Jewish concept.
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Old 01-29-2009, 03:27 PM
 
Location: Richland, Washington
4,070 posts, read 4,966,246 times
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The ten commandments shouldn't be preached, although there are three set of commandments that are dictated in the Tanakh-Exodus 20, Exodus 34 and Deuteronomy 5. Christians like to use Exodus 20(the popular ten commandments), although Exodus 34 is where god gets down to business.
Exodus 34:13-14
Break down their altars, smash their sacred stones and cut down their Asherah poles. Do not worship any other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God.

According to Jesus, the law wasn't abolished(Mathew 5:17-20)

"Think not I came to abolish the law, I came not to destroy the law of the prophets but to fulfill. Not one stroke, not one word shall pass until heaven and earth shall disappear and anyone who teaches otherwise shall be thought of as the least in heaven."

That sounds pretty clear to me.
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Old 01-29-2009, 03:32 PM
 
Location: US
81 posts, read 131,057 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kdbrich View Post

1]The punishment is directly proportional to the one offended. God is infinite and eternal, so therefore the punishment is.

2]He doesn't do it to his own children. Yes...he created us...but ultimately you're a child of the one you serve. Most people in the world are children of the devil.

3]There are plenty of refernences in the OT to hell. It was certainly an OT Jewish concept.
1]Says who? skewed logic? The punishment is not proportionate to the offender. Man is finite and mortal, undeserving of eternal punishment. Simplicity itself.

2]This is substantiated directly by scripture, right? Or is it self-validated adherence upheld by popular conception?

3]("Sheol," the Old Testament word that is sometimes translated as Hell, only means "grave" by definition, and it is where everyone in the Old Testament went when they died--good or evil, Jew or Gentile). Thus the Old Testament does not contain the concept of Hell! If Hell is real therein, why didn't God make that warning plain right at the beginning of the Bible? God said the penalty for eating of the tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil was death- -not "eternal life" in fire and brimstone.
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Old 01-29-2009, 03:46 PM
 
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1) The 10 commandments are not identical to our contemporary liberal /humanitarian values. There are parts though, that remain at the foundation of most civilized societies (you shall not kill, etc...)
2) You made a mishmash by quoting other biblical laws (both from the old and new testaments) that are not part of the 10 commandments, thus alleging that the 10 commandments are inappropriate. Times have changed and today we have contemporary values. In 100 years our standards may look archaic and future people will probably be amazed at how could we do such things...
3) I think that nothing should be "preached". People have to learn and make up their mind. Preaching isn't very successful.
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Old 01-29-2009, 03:59 PM
 
Location: US
81 posts, read 131,057 times
Reputation: 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by oberon_1 View Post
1) The 10 commandments are not identical to our contemporary liberal /humanitarian values. There are parts though, that remain at the foundation of most civilized societies (you shall not kill, etc...)
2) You made a mishmash by quoting other biblical laws (both from the old and new testaments) that are not part of the 10 commandments, thus alleging that the 10 commandments are inappropriate. Times have changed and today we have contemporary values. In 100 years our standards may look archaic and future people will probably be amazed at how could we do such things...
3) I think that nothing should be "preached". People have to learn and make up their mind. Preaching isn't very successful.
1)Excellent point, very true. This is obviously good reasoning as to why the writers of the Old Testament chose some of those particular commandments.

2)I quoted some from Old and New to point out various laws that mainly pertained to the previous thread I had posted my OP in. Mainly the derisive nature with which women were treated. But when I referred to the Ten Commandments, I pointed out that the other laws were within the same book of Exodus as the commandments themselves, mainly condoning slavery and stoning to death. The main two other books, from which I derived and cited evidence of silly laws, are Leviticus and Deuteronomy.

3)While not indicating that my usage of the word preach meant a written or spoken address on a religious or moral matter, I assumed it would be implied. Sorry.
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