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Old 01-30-2009, 07:41 AM
 
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Which evolved first? The immune system? Or the need for it?
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Old 01-30-2009, 09:03 AM
 
Location: In the North Idaho woods, still surrounded by terriers
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All living things have immune systems (including plants), so my guess (I am not a doctor nor a scientist) is that the bodies evolved first and the immunities we need to survive evolved along the way as they became necessary. This has much to do with "survival of the fittest". Those plants and animals that possessed a natural immunity to whatever attacked them internally lived and reproduced, while the weaker species died off. Those successful immune systems grew in the following generations, which is what evolution is all about.

And now you will counter with "Well, where did those first immunities come from if not from God?" and I will say, "I do not know and neither do you." It is a never-ending circle of questions that cannot be sufficiently answered to satisfy a Fundamentalist. For you there is no answer except that God did it all, believing in the supernatural, and for some of us that just isn't enough and is totally irrational. That's why you were referred to as a Troll...you already know how you will respond to the replies you get, long before you post the questions. It's also called "baiting" and it serves no purpose.
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Old 01-30-2009, 09:06 AM
 
Location: Montrose, CA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kdbrich View Post
IYou're irrational to the point that you won't consider the possibility of supernatural events, regardless of the evidence.
What evidence? You've shown no evidence to support anything supernatural. Simply pointing to the bible and droning "God did it, the bible said so and it had to be god because we don't know how it happened so god did it..."

This OP is baiting/trolling, and that's it. End of story, done commenting on this thread.
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Old 01-30-2009, 09:22 AM
 
Location: Kentucky
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Anybody with the IQ of a cucumber should be able to figure this one out. In fact, I'm not even sure what twist the OP plans ot take with this. The evolution of bacteria is very well documented. It's the reason we have to create a new flu vaccine each year. It's the reason pharmacists and doctors beg people to finish their antibiotic regimen. Bacteria and viruses have always been around, and the lifeforms that survive are the ones who can create antibodies (natural or otherwise) to fight off the sicknesses. Lifeforms adapated to survive.
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Old 01-30-2009, 09:23 AM
 
4,669 posts, read 3,911,820 times
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Originally Posted by SuSuSushi View Post
What evidence? You've shown no evidence to support anything supernatural. Simply pointing to the bible and droning "God did it, the bible said so and it had to be god because we don't know how it happened so god did it..."
When have I done that?

I've pointed to the evidence. Things like cause/effect point to a cause for the effect (the universe). That's called discussion. I'm sorry if that offends you.

Frankly, atheists tend to be among the most irrational people around.

Quote:


This OP is baiting/trolling, and that's it. End of story, done commenting on this thread.
And you're attacking me personally because you simply have no answer to the question.
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Old 01-30-2009, 09:25 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Spotted1 View Post
Anybody with the IQ of a cucumber should be able to figure this one out. In fact, I'm not even sure what twist the OP plans ot take with this because the evolution of bacteria to become resistant to immune system antibodies and even antibiotics. It's the reason we have to create a new flu vaccine each year. It's the reason pharmacists and doctors beg people to finish their antibiotic regimen. Bacteria and viruses have always been around, and the lifeforms that survive are the ones who can create antibodies (natural or otherwise) to fight off the sicknesses.

So which one was it? The immune system?

Why would we need an immune system to evolve if there was nothing to attack the body?
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Old 01-30-2009, 09:27 AM
 
Location: Kentucky
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kdbrich View Post
When have I done that?

I've pointed to the evidence. Things like cause/effect point to a cause for the effect (the universe). That's called discussion. I'm sorry if that offends you.
Your evidence was.. (excuse me for paraphrasing)

"*looks at the world around*"

That's hardly evidence of creation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kdbrich View Post
Frankly, atheists tend to be among the most irrational people around.


And you're attacking me personally because you simply have no answer to the question.
Pot, kettle, blah blah blah.
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Old 01-30-2009, 09:30 AM
 
Location: Kentucky
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kdbrich View Post
So which one was it? The immune system?

Why would we need an immune system to evolve if there was nothing to attack the body?
You quoted me while I was editing to clarify. That aside, I never said an immune system evolved for no reason. The need to survive against bacteria/etc is the reason for the evolution of the immune system. And thus, bacteria also evolves to survive the attacks from immune system antibodies.
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Old 01-30-2009, 09:37 AM
 
4,669 posts, read 3,911,820 times
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Originally Posted by Spotted1 View Post
You quoted me while I was editing to clarify. That aside, I never said an immune system evolved for no reason. The need to survive against bacteria/etc is the reason for the evolution of the immune system. And thus, bacteria also evolves to survive the attacks from immune system antibodies.


1. It's amazing how we all agree on the idea of cause/effect until it points to the idea that this earth was "caused", or created. Apply that to the rest of life. Do you believe the computer you're typing on just sprang into existence one day from nothing? Or was there a factory that built the pieces and then someone assembled them?

2. And back to my original point. If there was no immune system, wouldn't the attacks on the body have killed the people, thus not giving them time to evolve a defense?
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Old 01-30-2009, 09:50 AM
 
Location: Kentucky
1,090 posts, read 1,955,258 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kdbrich View Post
1. It's amazing how we all agree on the idea of cause/effect until it points to the idea that this earth was "caused", or created. Apply that to the rest of life. Do you believe the computer you're typing on just sprang into existence one day from nothing? Or was there a factory that built the pieces and then someone assembled them?
The point you're trying to make here is the equivelant to William Paley's "Watchmaker" analogy. So to save myself some typing here's an article that explains why that kind of analogy doesn't work:

Apologia Atheos: The Watchmaker argument refuted

Enjoy.

Quote:
2. And back to my original point. If there was no immune system, wouldn't the attacks on the body have killed the people, thus not giving them time to evolve a defense?
It would have killed some, certainly, but not all. Usually the weaker of a species are the ones that will fall the illest and perish. The elderly and very young are most at risk. That still would've left plenty from the species that could be infected, but healthy enough to fight off the illness as well as develop a resistance that they then pass on to their offspring (Did you know some antibodies are even passed from mother to child via breastmilk? It's true!).
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