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Well...you'll have to work your way around some scripture:
"The Son of Man shall send out His angels, and they shall gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who do iniquity, and shall cast them into a furnace of fire. There shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."
(Mat 13:41-42)
"So it shall be at the end of the world. The angels shall come out and separate the wicked from among the just, and shall cast them into the furnace of fire. There shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."
Mat 13:49-50
"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Away from me, you that are under God's curse! Away to the eternal fire which has been prepared for the Devil and his angels!"
"These, then, will be sent off to eternal punishment, but the righteous will go to eternal life."
(Mat 25:41 & 46)
"And if your foot offends you, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life lame than to have two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched where
their worm (conscience) dies not, and the fire is not quenched."
(Mark 9:45-46)
"And in hell he lifted up his eyes, being in torments, and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am tormented in this flame."
(Luke 16:23-24)
"He who believes on Him is not condemned, but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only-begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than the Light, because their deeds were evil."
(John 3:18-19)
" - in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God and who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ, who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, ...."
(2Th 1:8-9)
"And a third angel followed them, saying with a great voice, If anyone worships the beast and its image, and receives a mark in his forehead or in his hand, he also will drink of the wine of the anger of God, having been mixed undiluted in the cup of His wrath. And he will be tormented by fire and brimstone before the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever. And they have no rest day or night, those who worship the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name."
(Rev 14:9-11)
"And if anyone was not found having been written in the Book of Life, he was cast into the Lake of Fire."
(Rev 20:15)
"But the fearful, and the unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, will have their part in the Lake burning with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."
(Rev 21:8)
While I appreciate the fact that you took the time to post those scriptures, they in NO WAY disprove what I am saying about universal reconciliation. All of these scriptures have been addressed either by me or other UR's in the Christianity forum at some point so you'll forgive me if I don't take the time to argue them with an atheist. You should hang out more in the Christianity forum and learn more about UR....
I WILL say that UR does not say that there will not be punishment, it's just not for all of eternity. And it's debatable as to what that "punishment" consists of and for how long it will last. And then there's the obvious mistranslations of words like "hell", "eternal" and "lake of fire".......
While I appreciate the fact that you took the time to post those scriptures, they in NO WAY disprove what I am saying about universal reconciliation. All of these scriptures have been addressed either by me or other UR's in the Christianity forum at some point so you'll forgive me if I don't take the time to argue them with an atheist. You should hang out more in the Christianity forum and learn more about UR....
I WILL say that UR does not say that there will not be punishment, it's just not for all of eternity. And it's debatable as to what that "punishment" consists of and for how long it will last. And then there's the obvious mistranslations of words like "hell", "eternal" and "lake of fire".......
The Christian church is an evolving movement. When the money begins to fall off they take a poll to see what's unpopular and change the classes in the seminaries to accomodate the public's opinion.
Hundreds of thousands of innocent young women were tortured and burned at the stake because they were accused of witchcraft. When the public learned that there was no such thing as a witch the church stopped bothering anybody. The scripture is still there.
For a thousand years the church demanded that infants be baptized. When many church members began to doubt the need for infant baptism the church stopped requiring it. All the scripture is still there.
Slavery was tolerated and often accomodated by the church for nearly 2000 years but when slavery was outlawed they shut up about it. The scripture is still there.
A billion hell fire and damnation sermons were preached but when the public began to reject the thought of such intense penalties they stopped mentioning it. The scripture is still there.
As far as my knowledge of the bible and more specifically the new testament...I studied it for the better part of forty years and had most of it committed to memory, chapter and verse. Don't think you're speaking to someone who knows nothing about the book you bet your life on...I probably know a lot more about it than you do and possibly the preacher you listen to on Sunday mornings. I've had a lot longer to work on it and a helluva lot of childhood brainwashing to put aside and outgrow.
That story about the son of god being born of a virgin and visited by kings, performing miracles and ultimately crucified and resurrected was first told in ancient Egypt about 3000 years before the Jewish version.
So, just because you don't believe in God means no one else should be allowed to? I hate to tell you, but that will never happen. I'm sure you know that.
So, just because you don't believe in God means no one else should be allowed to? I hate to tell you, but that will never happen. I'm sure you know that.
I should change my stage name to "Redundancy."
Number of atheists & agnostics grows
Saturday, March 1st 2008, 9:31 PM
In the religious world there are the "nuns" and the "nones," and while the first category is declining, the second is growing.
We all know who nuns are, even though you don't see them much anymore. All surveys show that they are fast disappearing.
But the "nones" are another matter. That is the term sociologists use to describe the people who answer "none" when asked about their religious affiliation. This category includes atheists ("don't believe") and agnostics ("don't know") as well as those who simply "don't affiliate."
A vast new survey of religion in America conducted by the Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life showed that a whopping 16% of Americans fall into the "none" group. The number is more than twice what it was in the early 1990s.
AmberroseMI: Never say never. I agree that it will take a long time (perhaps longer than we have, what with all the hatred engendered by competing religions). But if we can make it past the time of god-beliefs with nuclear weapons, I think it will eventually happen.
Ooooooooh MAN! I just figured out ^^^ the root of your "problem"!!
Since you don't recognize the root of your problem I doubt that you can see the root of his. It might help if you can see the problem here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AmberroseMI
So, just because you don't believe in God means no one else should be allowed to? I hate to tell you, but that will never happen. I'm sure you know that.
Threats of 'We will always believe no matter what you say' doesn't bother us. We have lived with it all our lives. We just keep pegging away with the logic and evidence and we have reason to believe that people are really concerned that they have ideas in their heads based on sound info. rather than just on what they would like to believe.
There are many, many, here who I see as having gone a long way, having shed an adherence to the scripture in which this God - belief is founded and who now prefer a more amorphous voice in the head and rumbling in the stomach which they are pleased to tell themselves is evidence for a universal controlling entity without which (residual theism has brainwashed them into believing) Life, the universe and everything, could not exist.
They only have to make the minor logical step of admitting that they do not KNOW and we are all on the same logical page. For some reason this fear of losing something - some comfy certainty - by abandoning illogical claims of knowledge for a more open - minded agnostic stance keeps them fiercely striving with we agnostic atheists over a really unimportant matter and being very sneering, irrational, mocking and basically fearful over really nothing at all.
Very immature of them.
Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 01-10-2011 at 09:45 AM..
That story about the son of god being born of a virgin and visited by kings, performing miracles and ultimately crucified and resurrected was first told in ancient Egypt about 3000 years before the Jewish version.
Melvin . . . my dear brother. You are correct about the"spiritual fossil record" of our cognitive development and understanding of God. What you and so many of our brothers and sisters do NOT seem to understand is that "stories" and their cognitive counterparts are the only and essential way we are led to a cognitive understanding of God. Myths, legends, scriptures, oral traditions . . . all of it represents our attempts to actualize the inspirations and insights built in to our cognitive development as a species. The totality of it represents the spiritual "fossil" record of our attempts to do so. It SHOULD have a consistent evolving pattern or template underlying it . . . so what you see as discrediting the Jesus legend actually confirms its relevance.
Now . . . either God does or does not exist. IF He exists . . . He will have created this template for the evolution of our spiritual (cognitive) understanding of Him . . . just as there is a template for the physical development of all life (DNA/RNA, "laws" of physics and chemistry,etc.). Finding evidence of this spiritual template in the "spiritual fossil record" should be a source of profound enlightenment about God and our purpose in being, Melvin. It should not undermine it. The churches have misinterpreted the significance and been absolutely heinous corrupters and opportunistic exploiters of the spiritual template. They have "criminally" misrepresented God (IMO) for over 2000 years.
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And it's debatable as to what that "punishment" consists of and for how long it will last. And then there's the obvious mistranslations of words like "hell", "eternal" and "lake of fire".......
