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Once again, what you consider to be rational thought is the brainwashing of your religious beliefs. You "acknowledge" (very kind of you, there) and claim them to be "god" inspired yet any predictions that happen to pass unfilled were not god inspired. You can't have it both ways.
As for your biblicial prophecies, I repeat that you are reading them thousands of years after the fact from renditions that have been editted and translated countless times, but you with your omnipotent knowledge of everything decide to believe them so they must be true. Can you say arrogant egotist?
If it requires non rational thought to continue ignoring facts, you have just described yourself. Any fact that you are not comfortable with, you deny. Is that rational?
As to which part of your precious bible is fiction, start at page one and read to the end. Can you say all of it? The occasional historic reference does not make the entire book true, just semi historical fiction.
Start spinning now, come up with something to dispute this from those who do your thinking for you. Or just go back and worship your god, Wilkerson and your bible. (Isn't that three gods? They are multiplying!)
What prophecies are you speaking of? And the prophecies you believe were from the past, could not of been fulfilled because the details of the prophecies could not be fulfilled until other prophecies were first fulfilled.
If your going to speak about prophecy, you really need to stop speaking in general terms, and vague references. Could you please state what prophecy is in error?
My, my, getting really testy here. Starting to shout (upper case typing) to try and make an unmakable point. Perhaps you should just quit while you are behind.
How can I be behind when I agree with the Scriptures? Your the one that does not agree with the God of the Bible. If you recall, it was you who said we do not need visions now days. It was God who said He will be giving visions out in the last days. And I write in bold print because I believe some of the simple Bible truths go right over your head, so I try to write in a way that you can't miss the point I'm trying to make.
See when God tells me he will be giving visions in the last days I believe Him. It appears you don't.
Why should I bother? You will just deny whatever I post anyway...Better that you prove to me that the bible is true in every respect.
Sanspeur, I do not deny what you write, I explain it. And it appears to me you are not looking for the truth, just a loop hole to jump through. Your wish is to prove the Bible wrong, with the hope that by doing so, you will free yourself from it's curse. And the concept of eternal punishment. The Bible will not allow that Sanspeur, and you can only sidestep it's truth, by being untruthful.
Last edited by Campbell34; 02-07-2009 at 04:05 PM..
Many of Wilkersons prophecies have already occured, (DID YOU FORGET THAT POINT?)
And you have stated, we have no need of visions and prophecies, we have everything in the Holy Scriptures?
Did you forget again, it is the Holy Scriptures that have stated that we will continue to prophesy in the last days.
Acts 2:17 AND IT SHALL BE IN THE LAST DAYS,' God says, 'THAT I WILL POUR FORTH OF MY SPIRIT ON ALL MANKIND; AND YOUR SONS AND YOUR DAUGHTERS SHALL PROPHESY, AND YOUR YOUNG MEN SHALL SEE VISIONS, AND YOUR OLD MEN SHALL DREAM DREAMS;
It will not be Wilkerson who will have to give an account, it will be you. For you have denied what God has already told us in the Scriptures. Shame on you!
Greetings Campbell34: I will not have to give an account for misinterpreting Acts 2:17. Read and study the entire passage, Campbell34.
What is the context? It is Pentecost. The multitude was hearing the apostles speaking in their native tongues and some mockingly accused them of being drunk or "full of new wine" (vs. 13). But Peter arose and explained to them all just exactly what was happening. Before he quoted Joel 2:28-32, (please notice carefully) he stated that "THIS is what was spoken by the prophet Joel" (emphasis mine). In other words, the giving of the Holy Spirit, the speaking in other tongues, and all those events beginning at Pentecost were prophesied by Joel to come to pass in the last days. THEY were then in the last days. THEY of that time were given visions and dreams, etc. WE are not! Why?
WE have the entire completed canon--THEY did not! There is no more need and no more mandate for dreams and visions because WE are not in the last days. Futurists teach that these are the last days because they wrongly believe that the last days are attended by the end of the world. But that is not the teaching of the Scriptures. The disciples asked Jesus about the end of the AGE and not the end of the world (Mat. 24). The end of that age of Judaism came about in those last days of the first century (pre-A.D. 70) when Christ came and judged that nation for her guilt in "all the righteous blood shed on the earth" (Mat. 23). That Old Covenant Age was brought to an end at the destruction of the city and the temple. The surviving Jews were dispersed throughout the nations of the world--never to come together again! Who is denying what has already been taught in the Scriptures?
The last days are behind us--and with them, all visions and prophecies. That includes the false prophecies of David Wilkerson! Again, shame on him and shame on any for listening to him!
Greetings Campbell34: I will not have to give an account for misinterpreting Acts 2:17. Read and study the entire passage, Campbell34.
What is the context? It is Pentecost. The multitude was hearing the apostles speaking in their native tongues and some mockingly accused them of being drunk or "full of new wine" (vs. 13). But Peter arose and explained to them all just exactly what was happening. Before he quoted Joel 2:28-32, (please notice carefully) he stated that "THIS is what was spoken by the prophet Joel" (emphasis mine). In other words, the giving of the Holy Spirit, the speaking in other tongues, and all those events beginning at Pentecost were prophesied by Joel to come to pass in the last days. THEY were then in the last days. THEY of that time were given visions and dreams, etc. WE are not! Why?
WE have the entire completed canon--THEY did not! There is no more need and no more mandate for dreams and visions because WE are not in the last days. Futurists teach that these are the last days because they wrongly believe that the last days are attended by the end of the world. But that is not the teaching of the Scriptures. The disciples asked Jesus about the end of the AGE and not the end of the world (Mat. 24). The end of that age of Judaism came about in those last days of the first century (pre-A.D. 70) when Christ came and judged that nation for her guilt in "all the righteous blood shed on the earth" (Mat. 23). That Old Covenant Age was brought to an end at the destruction of the city and the temple. The surviving Jews were dispersed throughout the nations of the world--never to come together again! Who is denying what has already been taught in the Scriptures?
The last days are behind us--and with them, all visions and prophecies. That includes the false prophecies of David Wilkerson! Again, shame on him and shame on any for listening to him!
Preterist
The last days began after the death of Christ on the cross, they did not end there, or at Pentecost. And that is why the Bible speaks of the 200 million man army that will come from the East in the last days. This could not of happened back then. So to believe the last days was only for that time, requires you to ignore the other prophecies. And it is the Old Testament that tells us that in the Latter years we would see the Jewish people return from a world wide exile, this could not of happen back then either. The fact is, there are a lot of things that could not of happened back then, and did not happen back then. The prophecies are for the future, not the past. And if you recall in Joel, he spoke of the sun being darkened, and the moon turning red, and the stars loseing their light. This to did not happen back then either. Yet all those signs are spoken of in the Book of Revelation, along with the destruction of Babylon. Old Babylon was never destroyed in one hours time, yet future Mystery Babylon will be. You can only believe what you believe, if your willing to ignore all the other prophecies. And I will ask you once again, since most of Wilkersons prophecies have been fulfilled, which ones are false?
Campbell34,
Just an observation. Even though I'm not a Christian I do understand that the Bible is considered to be the only true word of God so I can see why you're getting into this debate with other believers. Why would you expand the accepted written literature (the Bible) to include modern works of literature that you yourself have decided are worthy of being considered as authoratative as the Bible itself? It seems like you're saying that believers can pick and choose whatever happens to be out there on the bookshelves of Barnes & Noble and give it a status as though it were a modern addition to the Bible. Even I as an atheist realize that Christians have only one book that they recognize as the word of God and the name Wilkerson does not appear in that book.
The last days began after the death of Christ on the cross, they did not end there, or at Pentecost. And that is why the Bible speaks of the 200 million man army that will come from the East in the last days. This could not of happened back then. So to believe the last days was only for that time, requires you to ignore the other prophecies. And it is the Old Testament that tells us that in the Latter years we would see the Jewish people return from a world wide exile, this could not of happen back then either. The fact is, there are a lot of things that could not of happened back then, and did not happen back then. The prophecies are for the future, not the past. And if you recall in Joel, he spoke of the sun being darkened, and the moon turning red, and the stars loseing their light. This to did not happen back then either. Yet all those signs are spoken of in the Book of Revelation, along with the destruction of Babylon. Old Babylon was never destroyed in one hours time, yet future Mystery Babylon will be. You can only believe what you believe, if your willing to ignore all the other prophecies. And I will ask you once again, since most of Wilkersons prophecies have been fulfilled, which ones are false?
Greetings Campbell34: It is really difficult to discuss biblical issues with you when you do not provide any Scripture to back up what you say.
EVERYTHING we consider from the Book of Revelation MUST be placed in the clear historical time frame revealed to John. He was shown those things which were in HIS day to SHORTLY take place because the time was THEN near (Rev. 1:1, 3; 22:6, 10). Unlike Daniel, who was told TO seal up the prophecies because the time was far off (Dan. 12), John is told NOT to seal up the prophecies because the time was NEAR! The Book of Revelation is a highly symbolic book and many things within it should not be pressed too literally. A case in point--did the horses of the 200 million horsemen "spew fire, smoke and brimstone" out of the their mouths? Are these literal horses? What kind of power is there in a horse's mouth and tail to do the damage described in Revelation 9?
What about the star that fell to earth? Was it a literal star? (chapter 9). Did literal locusts come up out of the bottomless pit when the "star," who had the key, opened it? Did they torment men for five months? Did they have the faces of men? Were they literal locusts with stingers in their tails? This is figurative apocalyptic language--the same kind of language used by Joel and other OT writers to describe the horrors of God's judgment comings. It is also the same kind of language used by Jesus Himself in Matthew 24 to describe His coming in THAT generation in power and glory to avenge His saints and to bring judgment on THAT generation of apostate, adulterous, murderous Jews!
Do we rely on empiricism to create our doctrines or do we look at the clear teachings of the Scriptures? John was shown those things which were to shortly take place in his lifetime--we should accept that. If we cannot see the fulfillment, then we must dig deeper and study harder--not throw out the plain words of the Bible because we cannot find the fulfillment!
You accused me of not accepting the teachings of the Bible! Here is my challenge to you. Was or was not John clearly shown those things which were to SHORTLY take place? If you will not be guilty of your own accusation, you must answer that he was!
Wilkerson told us years before, that Eastern Europe, Russia, and China would be opened up to the Gospel of Christ, and that prophecy is pretty dramatic.
I don't know whether it was considered that improbable (I wasn't there and didn't research the period), but it's still well in the realm of the possible. It's like "why doesn't God heal amputees" all over again.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Campbell
The God of the Bible does not give dates, and so it should come as no surprise that Wilkersons prophecies would not have them either.
Really? Remind me to use that same argument again when you try to prove God using Bible prophecies, then. If it's not falsifyable, it's not acceptable. Basic scientific method.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Campbell34
The fact that most of his prophecies have come to pass in the last 35 years should be impressive enought, and Wilkerson is very much alive to see most of them fulfilled.
It would... if Wilkerson had given dates.
He did give a few dates, though, no matter how you twist his words. If he had gotten them right, I doubt we would hear you complain.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Campbell34
He did believe it would all occur in our generation.
Just what I said. His prophecies did not come true when he said they would but that doesn't count, because God never gives dates! However, he also said they would come true this generation and some did, which is iron-hard proof that he's a prophet.
Campbell34,
Just an observation. Even though I'm not a Christian I do understand that the Bible is considered to be the only true word of God so I can see why you're getting into this debate with other believers. Why would you expand the accepted written literature (the Bible) to include modern works of literature that you yourself have decided are worthy of being considered as authoratative as the Bible itself? It seems like you're saying that believers can pick and choose whatever happens to be out there on the bookshelves of Barnes & Noble and give it a status as though it were a modern addition to the Bible. Even I as an atheist realize that Christians have only one book that they recognize as the word of God and the name Wilkerson does not appear in that book.
The Bible clearly tells us that Christians in the future will be given prophecies from God for the purpose of building up the church. When men we know who are Godly come along and reveal prophecies that agree with the Scriptures, and those prophecies can be shown to be true, then we will support that truth.
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