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Old 02-08-2009, 08:42 AM
 
7,654 posts, read 9,713,402 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roxolan View Post
I don't know whether it was considered that improbable (I wasn't there and didn't research the period), but it's still well in the realm of the possible. It's like "why doesn't God heal amputees" all over again.

Really? Remind me to use that same argument again when you try to prove God using Bible prophecies, then. If it's not falsifyable, it's not acceptable. Basic scientific method.

It would... if Wilkerson had given dates.

He did give a few dates, though, no matter how you twist his words. If he had gotten them right, I doubt we would hear you complain.
Just what I said. His prophecies did not come true when he said they would but that doesn't count, because God never gives dates! However, he also said they would come true this generation and some did, which is iron-hard proof that he's a prophet.
Wilkerson said he believed his prophecies would come true in our generation, yet that belief was not part of the Vision he saw. That belief was based on his opinion. And that belief was no more valid than any date he gave. Because all of his time references were based on his opinion only. As I have stated before, in his book, he clearly tells us he did not know when all of this would happen. We just know today, that most of what he predicted has already occured. Yet, there still remains some major events to come.
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Old 02-08-2009, 08:55 AM
 
Location: The land where cats rule
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Campbell34 View Post
How can I be behind when I agree with the Scriptures? Your the one that does not agree with the God of the Bible. If you recall, it was you who said we do not need visions now days. It was God who said He will be giving visions out in the last days. And I write in bold print because I believe some of the simple Bible truths go right over your head, so I try to write in a way that you can't miss the point I'm trying to make.
See when God tells me he will be giving visions in the last days I believe Him. It appears you don't.

First, show me a quote where I said we do not need visions now days. You can't. Another lie for the "truth teller".

Agreeing with the scriptures does not show an agreement with god, merely a lack of individual thought capability on your part.

I am following your lead by the bold face type here: maybe (not likely) it will help to break through that brick wall of blind obediance you call your religion and cause some actual thought.


BTW, I stated before that I really don't care what you believe. I continue to wonder why you cannot provide the same consideration to others. Why must everyone believe as you do? From the point of view of many others you simply have it wrong, which I will believe until the end of time.
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Old 02-08-2009, 09:05 AM
 
Location: The land where cats rule
10,946 posts, read 8,035,546 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Campbell34 View Post
Wilkerson said he believed his prophecies would come true in our generation, yet that belief was not part of the Vision he saw. That belief was based on his opinion. And that belief was no more valid than any date he gave. Because all of his time references were based on his opinion only. As I have stated before, in his book, he clearly tells us he did not know when all of this would happen. We just know today, that most of what he predicted has already occured. Yet, there still remains some major events to come.

Now prophecies are to contain belief and opinion and considered true? Changing the definition of what it takes to fulfill them, aren't we? Would that not indicate a false prophet, equivacating as he does?

And of course we have the old saw that gods time is not our time. Handy when fulfillment fails to happen.

BTW, what makes this persons prophecies (read fortune telling) the work of your god? I have seen better from a palm reader.
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Old 02-08-2009, 10:25 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Campbell34 View Post
The Bible clearly tells us that Christians in the future will be given prophecies from God for the purpose of building up the church. When men we know who are Godly come along and reveal prophecies that agree with the Scriptures, and those prophecies can be shown to be true, then we will support that truth.
Hello, Campbell34: The Bible teaches no such thing. The Bible teaches (Acts 1) that those of the first century were living in the last days. Joel 2 was fulfilled in that time frame, beginning at Pentecost.

Peter stated that even in his day God's divine power HAD GIVEN to them "all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, by which HAVE BEEN GIVEN to us exceedingly great and precious promises" (2 Peter 1:3, 4). The Church needs no new "prophecies" to be built up. She has all she needs in the Scriptures and in the Christ whom THEY reveal.

It is nothing but arrogance and untruthfulness that prompts someone today to dare to speak from God. That is a very dangerous thing for such as Mr. Wilkerson and others who claim to be prophets of God.

Preterist
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Old 02-08-2009, 10:25 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Preterist View Post
Greetings Campbell34: It is really difficult to discuss biblical issues with you when you do not provide any Scripture to back up what you say.

EVERYTHING we consider from the Book of Revelation MUST be placed in the clear historical time frame revealed to John. He was shown those things which were in HIS day to SHORTLY take place because the time was THEN near (Rev. 1:1, 3; 22:6, 10). Unlike Daniel, who was told TO seal up the prophecies because the time was far off (Dan. 12), John is told NOT to seal up the prophecies because the time was NEAR! The Book of Revelation is a highly symbolic book and many things within it should not be pressed too literally. A case in point--did the horses of the 200 million horsemen "spew fire, smoke and brimstone" out of the their mouths? Are these literal horses? What kind of power is there in a horse's mouth and tail to do the damage described in Revelation 9?

What about the star that fell to earth? Was it a literal star? (chapter 9). Did literal locusts come up out of the bottomless pit when the "star," who had the key, opened it? Did they torment men for five months? Did they have the faces of men? Were they literal locusts with stingers in their tails? This is figurative apocalyptic language--the same kind of language used by Joel and other OT writers to describe the horrors of God's judgment comings. It is also the same kind of language used by Jesus Himself in Matthew 24 to describe His coming in THAT generation in power and glory to avenge His saints and to bring judgment on THAT generation of apostate, adulterous, murderous Jews!

Do we rely on empiricism to create our doctrines or do we look at the clear teachings of the Scriptures? John was shown those things which were to shortly take place in his lifetime--we should accept that. If we cannot see the fulfillment, then we must dig deeper and study harder--not throw out the plain words of the Bible because we cannot find the fulfillment!

You accused me of not accepting the teachings of the Bible! Here is my challenge to you. Was or was not John clearly shown those things which were to SHORTLY take place? If you will not be guilty of your own accusation, you must answer that he was!

Preterist
In the Book of Revelation modern warfare is described in the way the writer could best describe it. Since there was no real modern references to draw on, he used the langauge he was familuar with. It's pretty obvious that what Revelation was speaking of, was something other than literal horses. And in that sense, you are correct. Yet to suggest that the number 200 million was fictious, would be a mistake.
And the Book of Daniel was written long before the Book of Revelation, so he was correctly told to seal up those prophecies. Daniel, and Matthew both speak of the resurrection, and since the Book of Revelation was finished around sixty or seventy A.D. that event had not occured yet. And that prophecy would have to occur in the future. When you say Jesus said (THAT) generation, you do so while you ignore who (THAT) generation is. (THAT) generation, is the one that sees the parable of the fig tree fulfilled. Shortly in Gods time, is not the same as our time frame. And when you say John was shown things that were to happen in his life time, that is an incorrect assumption on your part. In Gods time frame, not even two days has passed sinced the prophecy was written down. If you recall, one day with the Lord is as thousand years, and a thousand years is as one day. And the Bible tells us. (NOT TO BE IGNORANT OF THAT FACT).
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Old 02-08-2009, 10:55 AM
 
7,654 posts, read 9,713,402 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Preterist View Post
Hello, Campbell34: The Bible teaches no such thing. The Bible teaches (Acts 1) that those of the first century were living in the last days. Joel 2 was fulfilled in that time frame, beginning at Pentecost.

Peter stated that even in his day God's divine power HAD GIVEN to them "all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, by which HAVE BEEN GIVEN to us exceedingly great and precious promises" (2 Peter 1:3, 4). The Church needs no new "prophecies" to be built up. She has all she needs in the Scriptures and in the Christ whom THEY reveal.

It is nothing but arrogance and untruthfulness that prompts someone today to dare to speak from God. That is a very dangerous thing for such as Mr. Wilkerson and others who claim to be prophets of God.

Preterist
So Joel 2 was fulfilled?

1. Who then was the great northern army that God removed?

2. What barren and desolate land were they driven to with their faces toward the east sea?

3. When was the sun turned into darkness, and the moon into blood?

4. Since this would of happened in Jesus day if what you are saying is true, what historic record shows us this event occured back then?

5. And verse 26 states that after that event, the Jewish people will praise the name of the LORD their God, and they will know He has dealt wondrously with them, and they will (NEVER) be ashamed. Was that fulfilled in the first century?

Now you told me that Joel 2 was fulfilled in that time frame, (first century). Now tell me, can you explain these events spoken of in the prophecy of Joel 2 ?

PLEASE, CAN YOU TELL ME WHEN THESE EVENTS OCCURED? REMEMBER, YOU SAID JOEL 2 WAS FULFILLED.
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Old 02-08-2009, 11:10 AM
 
7,654 posts, read 9,713,402 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Predos View Post
Now prophecies are to contain belief and opinion and considered true? Changing the definition of what it takes to fulfill them, aren't we? Would that not indicate a false prophet, equivacating as he does?

And of course we have the old saw that gods time is not our time. Handy when fulfillment fails to happen.

BTW, what makes this persons prophecies (read fortune telling) the work of your god? I have seen better from a palm reader.
Wilkerson gave us his vision, and then he gave his opinion. If you are unable to seperate the two, that's your problem. No one is changing anything here. What makes his prophecies true, is the fact that they have occured, which you seem to be ignoring. And when I have asked which one of his prophecies I have listed is untrue, you have failed to point out even one of them. Now I will ask you again, which one of his prophecies listed, is untrue?
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Old 02-08-2009, 11:28 AM
 
7,654 posts, read 9,713,402 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Predos View Post
First, show me a quote where I said we do not need visions now days. You can't. Another lie for the "truth teller".

Agreeing with the scriptures does not show an agreement with god, merely a lack of individual thought capability on your part.

I am following your lead by the bold face type here: maybe (not likely) it will help to break through that brick wall of blind obediance you call your religion and cause some actual thought.

BTW, I stated before that I really don't care what you believe. I continue to wonder why you cannot provide the same consideration to others. Why must everyone believe as you do? From the point of view of many others you simply have it wrong, which I will believe until the end of time.
Forgive me on that one Predos, I was mistaken when I thought you had made that statement. And I know you don't care what I believe. Yet the reason I push my belief is because I know that I am correct. And I also know that those who don't find Christ in this life are lost for all eternity. So I take my belief very seriously, and I am very worried about those who do not know Him. I suppose it is because I have had actual encounters with Him that really makes my belief so alive for me, and it also confirms the truth of the Bible.
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Old 02-08-2009, 11:55 AM
 
1,897 posts, read 3,046,265 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Campbell34 View Post
In the Book of Revelation modern warfare is described in the way the writer could best describe it. Since there was no real modern references to draw on, he used the langauge he was familuar with. It's pretty obvious that what Revelation was speaking of, was something other than literal horses. And in that sense, you are correct. Yet to suggest that the number 200 million was fictious, would be a mistake.
And the Book of Daniel was written long before the Book of Revelation, so he was correctly told to seal up those prophecies. Daniel, and Matthew both speak of the resurrection, and since the Book of Revelation was finished around sixty or seventy A.D. that event had not occured yet. And that prophecy would have to occur in the future. When you say Jesus said (THAT) generation, you do so while you ignore who (THAT) generation is. (THAT) generation, is the one that sees the parable of the fig tree fulfilled. Shortly in Gods time, is not the same as our time frame. And when you say John was shown things that were to happen in his life time, that is an incorrect assumption on your part. In Gods time frame, not even two days has passed sinced the prophecy was written down. If you recall, one day with the Lord is as thousand years, and a thousand years is as one day. And the Bible tells us. (NOT TO BE IGNORANT OF THAT FACT).
Campbell34: The fact remain that John was told to NOT seal up the words of the prophecy because in his lifetime the time was NEAR. He was clearly shown the things which were to shortly take place.

Frankly, my patience meter is beyond filled up with those who abuse 2 Peter 3:8 in order to justify their misuse and avoidance of clear time statements. 2 Peter 3:8 teaches that God is faithful. He does what He promises in His perfect timing. However, when He communicates with man, He uses the language He has given to us. When He says "soon," He means "soon!" When He says "shortly," He means "shortly." Read 2 Peter 3:8 again, Campbell 34. What does it say? WITH THE LORD (since He exists outside of the confines of time), one day is AS a thousand years and a thousand years AS a day. This is from God's perspective. Notice that it does not say that a day IS a thousand years or a thousand years IS a day!

My patience meter is also beyond filled up with those who will not accept the clear words of Scripture in Matthew 24:34. My friend, Campbell34, Jesus NEVER used the expression "this generation" in the way you and other futurists use it. Never! He always, without exception, meant those contemporaneous to Himself. Please look them up. SINCE you have chosen to give His words a meaning He never gave them, it is up to you present some justifiable precedent for taking His words in a way He Himself never did.

Notice also the context of Matthew 24. Jesus is speaking directly to those disciples right there with Him. It was THEY who were to learn the parable of the fig tree. It was THEY who were to recognize the signs of His coming as clearly as THEY recognized the signs of the coming of summer in the budding of the fig tree (notice that Luke adds "and ALL the trees"). To them Jesus said "when YOU (my disciples standing right here with Me) see all these things, know that it is near--at the doors!" When? THIS generation--the one in which they were then living--will by no means pass away till ALL these things take place."

That is how Jesus ALWAYS used the expression "this generation." Here is a question for you? Do you only redefine time words in passage having to do with eschatology? Do you give them their normal, usual, common meanings elsewhere? Words mean things. Soon means soon means soon. The same is true of shortly, at hand, near, etc. We must be diligent to rightly divide the word of truth! It is a serious thing to claim Jesus said something He never said!

Preterist
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Old 02-08-2009, 12:55 PM
 
7,654 posts, read 9,713,402 times
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Originally Posted by Preterist View Post
Campbell34: The fact remain that John was told to NOT seal up the words of the prophecy because in his lifetime the time was NEAR. He was clearly shown the things which were to shortly take place.

Frankly, my patience meter is beyond filled up with those who abuse 2 Peter 3:8 in order to justify their misuse and avoidance of clear time statements. 2 Peter 3:8 teaches that God is faithful. He does what He promises in His perfect timing. However, when He communicates with man, He uses the language He has given to us. When He says "soon," He means "soon!" When He says "shortly," He means "shortly." Read 2 Peter 3:8 again, Campbell 34. What does it say? WITH THE LORD (since He exists outside of the confines of time), one day is AS a thousand years and a thousand years AS a day. This is from God's perspective. Notice that it does not say that a day IS a thousand years or a thousand years IS a day!

My patience meter is also beyond filled up with those who will not accept the clear words of Scripture in Matthew 24:34. My friend, Campbell34, Jesus NEVER used the expression "this generation" in the way you and other futurists use it. Never! He always, without exception, meant those contemporaneous to Himself. Please look them up. SINCE you have chosen to give His words a meaning He never gave them, it is up to you present some justifiable precedent for taking His words in a way He Himself never did.

Notice also the context of Matthew 24. Jesus is speaking directly to those disciples right there with Him. It was THEY who were to learn the parable of the fig tree. It was THEY who were to recognize the signs of His coming as clearly as THEY recognized the signs of the coming of summer in the budding of the fig tree (notice that Luke adds "and ALL the trees"). To them Jesus said "when YOU (my disciples standing right here with Me) see all these things, know that it is near--at the doors!" When? THIS generation--the one in which they were then living--will by no means pass away till ALL these things take place."

That is how Jesus ALWAYS used the expression "this generation." Here is a question for you? Do you only redefine time words in passage having to do with eschatology? Do you give them their normal, usual, common meanings elsewhere? Words mean things. Soon means soon means soon. The same is true of shortly, at hand, near, etc. We must be diligent to rightly divide the word of truth! It is a serious thing to claim Jesus said something He never said!

Preterist


Well you see Preterist, the only ones who really want to believe that Jesus was speaking of his generation are the one's who really do not want to believe the Bible . Because if you believe that Jesus was only speaking of His time, you would also have to confirm that His prophecies of His return were never fulfilled. Thus the Bible is false, and there is no reason to believe it. Because there was never any sign of the Son of man appearing in heavens, and the tribes of the earth never mourned when they saw Him coming. And He did not send his angels with a trumpet blast to gather his elect. So, only an unbeliever could embrace such an idea.

When Jesus spoke, naturally He spoke to those who were right there with Him, yet Jesus said His Gospel would be preached (THROUGHOUT THE WORLD AS A WITNESS TO ALL NATIONS AND THEN THE END WILL COME.)

Do you believe the world was just (JERUSALEM?) And did you think that prophecy could be fulfilled by His 12 Apostles in a manner of a few months?

When you speak of John and the prophecy that states the time is near. You keep inserting that this would happen in (His lifetime). The Bible does not say it would happen in his lifetime. (THAT IS AN ASSMUPTION ON YOUR PART). And please don't tell me about the abuse of the Scripture. The time is near, is not a clear time statement. When the Bible wants to let you know something is truly near, it will give it to you, in years or months. Not in a vague reference such as, "the time is near".
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