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Old 02-08-2009, 02:33 PM
 
1,897 posts, read 3,039,593 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Campbell34 View Post
Well you see Preterist, the only ones who really want to believe that Jesus was speaking of his generation are the one's who really do not want to believe the Bible . Because if you believe that Jesus was only speaking of His time, you would also have to confirm that His prophecies of His return were never fulfilled. Thus the Bible is false, and there is no reason to believe it. Because there was never any sign of the Son of man appearing in heavens, and the tribes of the earth never mourned when they saw Him coming. And He did not send his angels with a trumpet blast to gather his elect. So, only an unbeliever could embrace such an idea.

When Jesus spoke, naturally He spoke to those who were right there with Him, yet Jesus said His Gospel would be preached (THROUGHOUT THE WORLD AS A WITNESS TO ALL NATIONS AND THEN THE END WILL COME.)

Do you believe the world was just (JERUSALEM?) And did you think that prophecy could be fulfilled by His 12 Apostles in a manner of a few months?

When you speak of John and the prophecy that states the time is near. You keep inserting that this would happen in (His lifetime). The Bible does not say it would happen in his lifetime. (THAT IS AN ASSMUPTION ON YOUR PART). And please don't tell me about the abuse of the Scripture. The time is near, is not a clear time statement. When the Bible wants to let you know something is truly near, it will give it to you, in years or months. Not in a vague reference such as, "the time is near".
Dear Campbell34: Those who understand "this generation" as it is always used by Jesus (i.e. His contemporaries) don't want to believe the Bible? What? We are the ones believing Jesus' words! Are you not the one now refusing to believe simple words?

The time is near IS a clear time statement, Campbell34. It is! When I say John's lifetime, I mean his generation--that very same generation Jesus predicted would see "all these things."

Campbell34, simply because you cannot "see" the fulfillment of things does not negate that fact that Jesus and the apostles clearly said that He was returning in that first-century generation. It is futurists, who claim that Jesus did not return in THAT generation in spite of His clear words that He would, who make the Bible false and make Jesus a false prophet and His apostles false teachers!

Were you there, Campbell34? Have you read Josephus, an eyewitness of the events, and his accounts of sitings of angelic beings in the heavens and other heavenly occurrences? Did not the tribes (the Jews) of the LAND mourn when they saw the results of His coming--the destruction of their city and the Temple? Did not even those living people who had pierced Him see the results of His coming? Did they hear a trumpet blast? Perhaps they did. We were not there. It is also possible that the trumpet sound is merely used metaphorically in relationship to God's coming in judgment.

Furthermore, if you read Colossians, you will see that the Gospel was in those days preached throughout the known world!

Will you not believe Jesus' words when He declared to those very disciples standing right there with Him that THEY would see the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet?

You have been taught to expect a physical and visible to all return of Christ, so, therefore, you cannot and will not accept the clear time words of the Scriptures because they do not fit your preconceived idea of the nature of things. Could you not look again? Could you not consider that perhaps your idea of the nature of Christ's return, the resurrection and the judgment are not correct, causing you to ignore and redefine plain words?

You know the meanings of the words near and at hand. In fact, the Bible does NOT usually give exact times (e.g. months and years) for the fulfillment of prophecy. If someone is arriving at your house and he says "I will be there soon," does he always know the exact hour or minute? Do you? But you know that soon means within a reasonable amount of time. Anything beyond that reasonable amount of time makes the meaning of the word soon inappropriate. You do not struggle with such things in your everyday life. Why do you have such a problem with such simple terms when they are found in the Scriptures?

Preterist
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Old 02-08-2009, 05:30 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Preterist View Post
Dear Campbell34: Those who understand "this generation" as it is always used by Jesus (i.e. His contemporaries) don't want to believe the Bible? What? We are the ones believing Jesus' words! Are you not the one now refusing to believe simple words?

The time is near IS a clear time statement, Campbell34. It is! When I say John's lifetime, I mean his generation--that very same generation Jesus predicted would see "all these things."

Campbell34, simply because you cannot "see" the fulfillment of things does not negate that fact that Jesus and the apostles clearly said that He was returning in that first-century generation. It is futurists, who claim that Jesus did not return in THAT generation in spite of His clear words that He would, who make the Bible false and make Jesus a false prophet and His apostles false teachers!

Were you there, Campbell34? Have you read Josephus, an eyewitness of the events, and his accounts of sitings of angelic beings in the heavens and other heavenly occurrences? Did not the tribes (the Jews) of the LAND mourn when they saw the results of His coming--the destruction of their city and the Temple? Did not even those living people who had pierced Him see the results of His coming? Did they hear a trumpet blast? Perhaps they did. We were not there. It is also possible that the trumpet sound is merely used metaphorically in relationship to God's coming in judgment.

Furthermore, if you read Colossians, you will see that the Gospel was in those days preached throughout the known world!

Will you not believe Jesus' words when He declared to those very disciples standing right there with Him that THEY would see the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet?

You have been taught to expect a physical and visible to all return of Christ, so, therefore, you cannot and will not accept the clear time words of the Scriptures because they do not fit your preconceived idea of the nature of things. Could you not look again? Could you not consider that perhaps your idea of the nature of Christ's return, the resurrection and the judgment are not correct, causing you to ignore and redefine plain words?

You know the meanings of the words near and at hand. In fact, the Bible does NOT usually give exact times (e.g. months and years) for the fulfillment of prophecy. If someone is arriving at your house and he says "I will be there soon," does he always know the exact hour or minute? Do you? But you know that soon means within a reasonable amount of time. Anything beyond that reasonable amount of time makes the meaning of the word soon inappropriate. You do not struggle with such things in your everyday life. Why do you have such a problem with such simple terms when they are found in the Scriptures?

Preterist
You are the one that has ignored the parable of the Fig tree. You are trying to humanistically rationalize it away, when Jesus speaks to us in parables, He informs us they are given for a special purpose to His believers.

And it's obvious "the time is near statement" was not in John's generation, because most of the prophecies were not fulfilled. Simply because I don't see? There is nothing simple about it, the prophecies are either fulfilled or they are not. Jesus did not say he was returning in the first century.

(HOW ON EARTH DO YOU BELIEVE THAT THE GOSPEL WOULD BE PREACHED TO THE WORLD IN THE FIRST CENTURY?)

You have ignored the parable of the fig tree, and you seem to think that some how 12 guys would be able to go to the ends of the earth and spread the Gospel in what 60 years? Christians are still trying to get to some of the more remote places here on planet earth.

The temple in Jerusalem was not destroyed because of Jesus coming. Jesus was long gone by then. The Temple was destroyed because the Jews rebeled against Rome. Maybe we should go back throught some of the ancient history books and white out all historical references to the Jews rebellion against Rome. Yeah, lets just tell everyone Jerusalem fell because Jesus was coming. I'm sure they will believe that one.

The Bible does not say the Gospel will be preached to only the Known world? The Bible tells us Christ gospel would be preached to (ALL) nations.
You cannot force fit the Bible this way. It's obvious, you are not looking at the details of the prophecies, your just trying to ram through your belief while ignoring what is clearly stated. (Know world.) Oh Please!

And as I have stated, if Joel 2 was fulfilled in the first century, who was the great Northern army that God removed? And what barren land were they driven to? The fact is, nothing like this ever happend, because the prophecy was not fulfilled in the first century? And if it was, there would be a record of this, and the Jews would of never been driven out by the Romans.

Preterist, your arguement falls apart, because of obvious unfulfilled prophecies. You are trying to force fit assumptions, and ignore missing hostorical facts that should exist if these events were fulfilled in the past.
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Old 02-08-2009, 06:19 PM
 
Location: Toronto, ON
2,333 posts, read 2,446,868 times
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Quote:
The Temple was destroyed because the Jews rebeled against Rome. Maybe we should go back throught some of the ancient history books and white out all historical references to the Jews rebellion against Rome. Yeah, lets just tell everyone Jerusalem fell because Jesus was coming. I'm sure they will believe that one.


I heard it was emperor Hadraan who expelled the Jews from Palestine (or the Judea region; some small organized group remained in the Gallilean region) after the rebelion. Of course this is easy for my Catholic upbringing which lumps all Caananites often with the Gentiles.
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Old 02-11-2009, 07:13 PM
 
1,897 posts, read 3,039,593 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Campbell34 View Post
You are the one that has ignored the parable of the Fig tree. You are trying to humanistically rationalize it away, when Jesus speaks to us in parables, He informs us they are given for a special purpose to His believers.

And it's obvious "the time is near statement" was not in John's generation, because most of the prophecies were not fulfilled. Simply because I don't see? There is nothing simple about it, the prophecies are either fulfilled or they are not. Jesus did not say he was returning in the first century.

(HOW ON EARTH DO YOU BELIEVE THAT THE GOSPEL WOULD BE PREACHED TO THE WORLD IN THE FIRST CENTURY?)

You have ignored the parable of the fig tree, and you seem to think that some how 12 guys would be able to go to the ends of the earth and spread the Gospel in what 60 years? Christians are still trying to get to some of the more remote places here on planet earth.

The temple in Jerusalem was not destroyed because of Jesus coming. Jesus was long gone by then. The Temple was destroyed because the Jews rebeled against Rome. Maybe we should go back throught some of the ancient history books and white out all historical references to the Jews rebellion against Rome. Yeah, lets just tell everyone Jerusalem fell because Jesus was coming. I'm sure they will believe that one.

The Bible does not say the Gospel will be preached to only the Known world? The Bible tells us Christ gospel would be preached to (ALL) nations.
You cannot force fit the Bible this way. It's obvious, you are not looking at the details of the prophecies, your just trying to ram through your belief while ignoring what is clearly stated. (Know world.) Oh Please!

And as I have stated, if Joel 2 was fulfilled in the first century, who was the great Northern army that God removed? And what barren land were they driven to? The fact is, nothing like this ever happend, because the prophecy was not fulfilled in the first century? And if it was, there would be a record of this, and the Jews would of never been driven out by the Romans.

Preterist, your arguement falls apart, because of obvious unfulfilled prophecies. You are trying to force fit assumptions, and ignore missing hostorical facts that should exist if these events were fulfilled in the past.
Campbell34: How have I ignored the parable of the fig tree? I am ignoring it because I don't agree with your assessment of it?

What is the context, Campbell? To whom is Jesus speaking? Over 20 times He says "ye." WE are NOT the YE! Jesus, speaking directly to those disciples right there with Him, said "[YOU] learn the parable of the fig tree." It was they, who recognized the signs of the coming of summer in the budding the simple fig tree (again, Luke adds "and all the trees), who were to recognize the signs of His coming and know that it was near--at the doors! That is the plain sense of the passage, Campbell. To accuse someone who is taking the plain sense of a passage of ignoring it is unjustified. With all proper respect, Campbell (and I do not intend to be mean-spirited), you are reading into the text a meaning for "fig tree" that Jesus clearly did not intend to convey. It is just a fig tree. It is futurists who read their preconceived ideas into this passage and then point fingers at those of us who just don't "get it." You mistakenly insist that "fig tree" must refer to Israel. That is not so!

When was this all taking place? Clearly, in the lifetime of those very disciples--in THAT generation, not in ours and not in any other generation. Please, read the words and let them say what they plainly say. "THIS generation will by no means pass away till ALL these things take place." Every time, without exception, Jesus used that expression, He meant His generation, those contemporaneous to Him and to His disciples. Always! It is imperative that futurists provide a precedent for taking Jesus' words in a unique way.

Here is the problem, Campbell34, (a problem I personally understand since I myself was hoodwinked by futurists for far too many years)--you have been taught that the Lord was to come in a certain way so that when you cannot see that unfold, you declare that it didn't happen. If one misunderstands the nature of His coming and the nature of the resurrection and the nature of the judgment, he will always have trouble accepting the plain, unmistakable time statements in the NT.

If Jesus had come right out and said "I am coming back in A. D. 70," you would still have to deny that He did because you did not see it the way you demand that it had to transpire. Do we let the Word inform our beliefs, or do we force our beliefs into the Scriptures so that we stumble over simple statements and expressions?

The Temple WAS destroyed by Jesus' coming in A. D. 70--just as He predicted in Matthew 23 and 24. The Temple and Jerusalem were ultimately destroyed not because the Jews rebelled against Rome but because they rebelled against GOD! Reread Matthew 23!

Since Jesus told His disciples that the Gospel would be preached throughout the world in THAT very generation (Matthew 24:34), he certainly intended the known world. Again, read Colossians 1:5, 6; 23. Paul makes it clear that while he still lived, the Gospel had been preached "in all the world," to "every creature that is under heaven." Again, you are reading your preconceived ideas into these simple words. What did Paul clearly say? I am taking the words as they are written, yet you accuse me of "trying to ram my beliefs while ignoring what is clearly stated." Who is doing that, Campbell34? Are not you doing that when you refuse to accept these simple statements?

You say the prophecies are "obviously" unfulfilled? You don't see their fulfillment, so, therefore, you proclaim they were not fulfilled, despite the fact that the Scriptures declare that they were to be fulfilled in that generation.

To whom did Jesus clearly stated: "When you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet" (Matt. 24:15). To whom did He say that, Campbell34? He was speaking directly to His disciples who had questioned Him. He answered them directly, repeatedly saying "you." Whom did Jesus forewarn, Campbell34? Jesus warned those disciples standing there with Him that they would be hated and persecuted and killed. Jesus told them that they should not be troubled because there would be wars and rumors of wars, famines, pestilences, and earthquakes.
He warned them that they would be delivered up. It was to them that He said "See, I have told you beforehand" (vs. 25).

Inspite of His clear words and the clear testimony of the Apostles that He was coming back in their lifetime, many refuse to accept their teachings because they have constructed a scenario of HOW Jesus was to come. When they do not see that scenario of their own making played out, they cry, "See, those time statments can't really mean that because the Lord never came back the way I demand that He must!" What kind of hermenutic and exegesis is that?

Jesus came back as He said He would. If one can't see that, then it is time for him to re-evaluate his preconceived ideas and look for the fulfillment. The truth is out there!

Preterist
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Old 02-13-2009, 12:25 AM
 
Location: Somewhere out there
9,616 posts, read 11,087,589 times
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Red face Amazing!

I go away for 5 or 6 days and it's still a Rant-a-Roo back here on C-D. My absence has cleared my own mind though.

How's it going, C34? A quick question? If your beloved "prophesies" are always in the future, and never come to pass, I suppose you'll always be safe, won't you?

But also, as I said before, and you didn't answer me then either, when a prophesy is scheduled to happen and doesn't, well then, sorry, you don't get to recycle it, now do you? You know, to re-schedule it to a later more convenient venue and time 'cause it didn't happen, now can you? That just looks too danged "convenient".

So, as time and opportunities run out, and these "Nostradamus - like" pseudo-prophesies pass by unaccomplished, they are, sorry, off the books, and thus, logically, eventually there won't be any more available.

(Well, of course, unless some new Wilkersonian writes up a brave new bunch in a best-seller...)

How liberating THAT will be for us all!

Well, it's back to my flying machine for now! Stay cozy and deluded now!
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Old 02-13-2009, 01:20 AM
 
Location: England
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Yes Rifleman c34 is starting to read more & more like Torquemada.

He is the kind of christian that your mother warned you about.
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Old 02-13-2009, 09:35 AM
 
Location: The land where cats rule
10,946 posts, read 7,996,982 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Preterist View Post
Campbell34: How have I ignored the parable of the fig tree? I am ignoring it because I don't agree with your assessment of it?

There you go! If you don't agree with him, you just aren't getting it! That way he never has to admit that he is wrong.
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Old 02-13-2009, 09:37 AM
 
Location: Montrose, CA
3,031 posts, read 7,881,151 times
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Originally Posted by albion View Post
Yes Rifleman c34 is starting to read more & more like Torquemada.

He is the kind of christian that your mother warned you about.
LOL...no, he's the kind of Christian that my mother IS.
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Old 02-13-2009, 09:56 AM
 
Location: Somewhere out there
9,616 posts, read 11,087,589 times
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Wink "Bruthas and Sistas, rejoice in The Truth!"!

I met a minister at a friend's cocktail party last weekend who is the serious spitting image of the bible-banging Rev'Rnd LoveJoy on The Simpsons. Quite entertaining, actually. I, being one of Satan's minions and all, toyed with him better than he was toying with me and eventually he excused himself, deflated and defeated.

PS: I did mention that I'd effectively honed my debating skills on a little site called City-Data and encouraged him to join in!

I'm pretty sure I saw him crossing himself shortly afterwards and mumbling somethin' in my general direction. What could he have been saying, Sush?

I'll get back to this in about 3 - 4 days when I return to The Land of The Free (and well-armed). As sanspeur will attest, things ain't goin' so good here in YVR for the police. Danged gun owners!
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Old 02-13-2009, 11:26 AM
 
Location: Victoria, BC.
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You got that right, but looking on the bright side it is mostly gang riff raff killing each other.

Confronting the problem of gang violence
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