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Old 02-14-2009, 05:22 PM
 
1,897 posts, read 3,039,295 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Campbell34 View Post
Oh please Preterist, the Bible clearly teaches that when Jesus returns again (ALL THE NATIONS) will mourn when they see Him come, and not just the Jews? I believe it is you who has created this non Biblical scenario. And Jesus clearly states that the Disciples would be (put to death) before His return as mentioned in Matthew 24:9. And some did see Jesus return before they died, and that was in a vision at the transfiguration. It was not the actual event. Jesus statement was recorded in the last verse of Matthew Chapter 16, and it's fulfillment came in Matthew chapter 17 verse 2. And the Bible clearly teaches that the GOSPEL would be preached in (ALL THE WORLD) and not just the known world. You can only believe what you do, by ignoring all the other Scriptures.
Campbell34: Do you know what you are saying? You are saying that Jesus told His disciples that SOME of them standing there with Him would not taste of death before He came six days later at the Transfiguration! Did most of them die within those mere six days? It is clear that Matthew 16:28 teaches that most of them would live until His coming--which demands a longer time frame than six days! Furthermore, if the Transfiguration was a picture of His coming, where was the trumpet sound, and the angels, where was the voice of the archangel, where was the gathering of the elect from all corners of the earth, etc.? This was a vision of His glory! His disciples got a glimpse of His true nature, His deity!

On the contrary, Campbell34, the Bible does NOT teach that all nations would mourn. This is what Revelation 1:7 says:

"Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the TRIBES [not nations] of the LAND [not earth] will mourn because of Him."

Here is the first principle of sound hermeneutics and exegesis--CONTEXT! Let's look at the context. The "every eye" are those who are contemporary with "those who pierced Him." The Greek word unfortunately translated "earth" is gee, better rendered "land." The word wrongly translated "nations" is phulee, better rendered "tribes" as done in the NKJV (See Mt. 19:28; Luke 22:30; James 1:1). The fact that the Revelation is dealing with coming judgment on that generation of Jews, these terms fit the context!

Again, there is the coming on the clouds--an event clearly stated to be near--in that generation (see Matthew 16:27, 28; Matthew 24:29f; Matthew 26:64; Acts 1:7). Furthermore, who most properly "mourned because of Him?" That generation to which Jesus pronounced judgment and woe (Matthew 23) saw the fulfillment in the destruction of their Temple and city and THEY mourned because of Him. It was a time in which those who pierced Him were still alive! The expression "every eye" does not mean every eye throughout the entire earth. It is limited by the CONTEXT and, therefore, is restricted to the land.

The word "every" rarely means every without any boundaries or exceptions. "All have sinned" is all inclusive. All men without exception sin! In Luke 8:1 we read that Jesus "went through every city." If every always means every as you claim, then Jesus must have gone through every city of the world. We know that this is simply not true. Jesus went through "every city" of that particular part of the world. The same is true of Revelation 1:7--the every is attached to the area associated with the tribes of the land and those who pierced Him and to none other. There are also different types of seeing. Did "every eye" see Him visibly and physically or did "every eye" see the results of His coming--the destruction of the city and the Temple and the shattering of the holy people (Daniel 12)? Certainly, the OT Jews "saw" God come in judgment against the Babylonians, the Egyptians, the Edomites, and Israel as well. Did they actually "see" God? Or did they see the evidence of His "coming?"

Again, Campbell34, I challenge you to read Colossians before you accuse others of ignoring Scripture. Colossians 1:3-6; 23--

Paul, giving thanks to God for the Colossians' faith in Christ Jesus and their "love for all the saints," states that they have hope concerning heaven, something they had heard "in the word of the truth of the gospel"-- the gospel which had come to them as it had also "in all the world" (emphasis mine). This is a completed mission--the Gospel had gone out into ALL the world--THEN (Colossians 1:3-6). Again, in verse 23, Paul states that the "hope of the gospel" which they had heard, was "preached to every creature under heaven." This could not be clearer, Campbell34.

How much clearer could these words of Jesus be--"There are some standing here who will not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom" (Matthew 16:28). This verse follows verse 27 which connects His coming in His kingdom to His coming "in the glory of His Father with His angels--a coming which in the Greek is rendered "about to (mello) come." This glory-coming with angels is that same event mentioned in Matthew 24 which was to take place in THAT generation and none other. It is the very same coming that the flesh-and-blood Caiaphas and all the Sanhedrin were to see (Matthew 26:64).

The Gospel was preached in all the world in fulfillment of Jesus' words in Matthew 24. Jesus did come in the glory of His Father to that generation as predicted by Jesus Himself (Matthew 24:29f; Matthew 10:23; 16:27, 28; 26:64). Every eye of that first-century land of Israel, included those very ones who pierced Him, either saw Him visibly or "saw" Him in the destruction of the Temple and the city. He has come just as He promised. Great is His faithfulness!

Preterist
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Old 02-14-2009, 05:24 PM
 
7,567 posts, read 4,043,796 times
Reputation: 1188
I have read this post. I think there is quite a contest going on here. However, as I read I remembered about Temple Mount in Jerusalem and I hadn't thought about that in years. So I did some looking and I came up with the Bible prophecy in the rebuild of the Temple. And then looked to the news to see just where they are at with that. What follows is part of my research.

Bible: Prophecy
"His armed forces will rise up to desecrate the Temple and will abolish the daily sacrifice. Then they will set up the abomination that causes desolation. With flattery he will corrupt those who have violated the covenant, but the people who know their God will firmly resist him." (Daniel 11:31-32 NIV) (see The Antichrist)
Daily Bible Study - Temples

WND News: (is prophecy being fulfilled, my questions)
"They had desecrated one of the holy arks. They had urinated right next to it. One of the men went in and found a big puddle of urine there next to the Ark," Hebron spokesman David Wilder told Israel National News.
Muslims desecrate, urinate in Judaism's 2nd holiest site (read the article in full)

If any one is interested in Bible prophecy from this web site the index key:
Daily Bible Study - Prophecy

Also in the World Net Daily:

In recent years, Jordan quietly has been purchasing real estate surrounding the Temple Mount in Jerusalem in hopes of gaining more control over the area accessing the holy site, according to Palestinian and Israeli officials speaking to WND.
The officials disclosed the Jordanian kingdom in 2006 and 2007 used shell companies to purchase several apartments and shops located at key peripheral sections of the Temple Mount. The shell companies at times presented themselves as acting on behalf of the Waqf custodians of the Temple Mount, according to information obtained.
What? Israel to help Muslims carve Quranic verses on Temple Mount

The OP began this post with a book and many have picked him a part. And from his reception I can only imagine that these guys will have a very tough audience.

Using the Revised Standard Version (RSV), we read of them in Revelation 11:3-13:
"And I will grant My two witnesses power to prophesy for one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth."

Daily Bible Study - The Two Witnesses

The OP began with a book, and I found another. I may even order this. Although most of what the author refers to I already know and understand, perhaps he may have more that I don't know. I've always said, if you want to know what is in the Bible read the Bible. But is seems oddly enough that only adds to our diversity on what sa, what sa...

Excerpt: "Shocked by the Bible", Joe Kovacs

In perhaps the most under publicized verse of the entire Bible – ironically found just three verses before what is arguably the most famous line of John 3:16 – Jesus Christ declared that no one has gone to heaven except Himself.

It's true. Here's the stunning quote.
  • And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. (John 3:13, King James Version)
  • No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven – the Son of Man. (John 3:13, New International Version)
Meanwhile, the Bible does indicate that at least one other person, specifically the Old Testament prophet Elijah, did go to heaven.
What really happens when you die?

One thing is for certain, more often we profess that we know, the more our actions tell us, we don't know.
"Why do you trouble the woman? For she has done a beautiful thing to Me. For you always have the poor with you, but you will not always have Me. In pouring this ointment on My body she has done it to prepare Me for burial. Truly, I say to you, wherever this Gospel is preached in the whole world, what she has done will be told in memory of her." (Matthew 26:10-13 RSV)
This simple little prediction by Jesus Christ is an excellent example for those who seek the proof that prophecy is real, was made long ago, and will be fulfilled when the appointed time comes. Those words survived and travelled nearly 20 centuries from the mouth of Jesus Christ right to every person who reads or hears it. Your reading of those words causes that Biblical prophecy to again be fulfilled, this time in you.
Daily Bible Study - A Prophecy To You

We fulfill the Bible prophecy every day, with each day we...

Last edited by Ellis Bell; 02-14-2009 at 05:25 PM.. Reason: were spell where
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Old 02-15-2009, 06:49 AM
 
7,654 posts, read 9,687,746 times
Reputation: 495
Quote:
Originally Posted by ptsum View Post
Got a question for you Campbell, do you believe that everything in the Bible was written by God? And that the Bible is the truth?
I believe God authored the Bible, and it was written by inspired men of God. And I believe the orginal Scripture to be true.
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Old 02-15-2009, 07:32 AM
 
7,654 posts, read 9,687,746 times
Reputation: 495
Quote:
Originally Posted by Preterist View Post
Campbell34: Do you know what you are saying? You are saying that Jesus told His disciples that SOME of them standing there with Him would not taste of death before He came six days later at the Transfiguration! Did most of them die within those mere six days? It is clear that Matthew 16:28 teaches that most of them would live until His coming--which demands a longer time frame than six days! Furthermore, if the Transfiguration was a picture of His coming, where was the trumpet sound, and the angels, where was the voice of the archangel, where was the gathering of the elect from all corners of the earth, etc.? This was a vision of His glory! His disciples got a glimpse of His true nature, His deity!

On the contrary, Campbell34, the Bible does NOT teach that all nations would mourn. This is what Revelation 1:7 says:

"Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the TRIBES [not nations] of the LAND [not earth] will mourn because of Him."

Here is the first principle of sound hermeneutics and exegesis--CONTEXT! Let's look at the context. The "every eye" are those who are contemporary with "those who pierced Him." The Greek word unfortunately translated "earth" is gee, better rendered "land." The word wrongly translated "nations" is phulee, better rendered "tribes" as done in the NKJV (See Mt. 19:28; Luke 22:30; James 1:1). The fact that the Revelation is dealing with coming judgment on that generation of Jews, these terms fit the context!

Again, there is the coming on the clouds--an event clearly stated to be near--in that generation (see Matthew 16:27, 28; Matthew 24:29f; Matthew 26:64; Acts 1:7). Furthermore, who most properly "mourned because of Him?" That generation to which Jesus pronounced judgment and woe (Matthew 23) saw the fulfillment in the destruction of their Temple and city and THEY mourned because of Him. It was a time in which those who pierced Him were still alive! The expression "every eye" does not mean every eye throughout the entire earth. It is limited by the CONTEXT and, therefore, is restricted to the land.

The word "every" rarely means every without any boundaries or exceptions. "All have sinned" is all inclusive. All men without exception sin! In Luke 8:1 we read that Jesus "went through every city." If every always means every as you claim, then Jesus must have gone through every city of the world. We know that this is simply not true. Jesus went through "every city" of that particular part of the world. The same is true of Revelation 1:7--the every is attached to the area associated with the tribes of the land and those who pierced Him and to none other. There are also different types of seeing. Did "every eye" see Him visibly and physically or did "every eye" see the results of His coming--the destruction of the city and the Temple and the shattering of the holy people (Daniel 12)? Certainly, the OT Jews "saw" God come in judgment against the Babylonians, the Egyptians, the Edomites, and Israel as well. Did they actually "see" God? Or did they see the evidence of His "coming?"

Again, Campbell34, I challenge you to read Colossians before you accuse others of ignoring Scripture. Colossians 1:3-6; 23--

Paul, giving thanks to God for the Colossians' faith in Christ Jesus and their "love for all the saints," states that they have hope concerning heaven, something they had heard "in the word of the truth of the gospel"-- the gospel which had come to them as it had also "in all the world" (emphasis mine). This is a completed mission--the Gospel had gone out into ALL the world--THEN (Colossians 1:3-6). Again, in verse 23, Paul states that the "hope of the gospel" which they had heard, was "preached to every creature under heaven." This could not be clearer, Campbell34.

How much clearer could these words of Jesus be--"There are some standing here who will not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom" (Matthew 16:28). This verse follows verse 27 which connects His coming in His kingdom to His coming "in the glory of His Father with His angels--a coming which in the Greek is rendered "about to (mello) come." This glory-coming with angels is that same event mentioned in Matthew 24 which was to take place in THAT generation and none other. It is the very same coming that the flesh-and-blood Caiaphas and all the Sanhedrin were to see (Matthew 26:64).

The Gospel was preached in all the world in fulfillment of Jesus' words in Matthew 24. Jesus did come in the glory of His Father to that generation as predicted by Jesus Himself (Matthew 24:29f; Matthew 10:23; 16:27, 28; 26:64). Every eye of that first-century land of Israel, included those very ones who pierced Him, either saw Him visibly or "saw" Him in the destruction of the Temple and the city. He has come just as He promised. Great is His faithfulness!

Preterist

Matthew 24:30

New American Standard Bible- and then (all the tribes of the earth will mourn),

God's Word Translation-(All the people on earth will cry in agony) when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds

King James Bible-and then shall (all the tribes of the earth mourn),

American Standard Version- (all the tribes of the earth mourn),

Bible in Basic English-and then (all the nations of the earth will have sorrow),

Weymouth New Testament-and then will (all the nations of the earth lament),

Revelation 1:7 teaches that (all nations would mourn), and so does Matthew 24:30. It's pretty obvious, the Bible is not just speaking of (the tribes of the land), it is speaking of (ALL PEOPLE) on the planet. And such an event never occured in the past, yet it will occur in the future. Do not limit your understanding of the Scriptures, to one incorrect translation of that verse.
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Old 02-15-2009, 08:35 AM
 
7,654 posts, read 9,687,746 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by braderjoe View Post
How about prophecies which should have been fulfilled but were not? Such as the one below :



Paul thought that Jesus was coming soon.

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17
15 According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

They are dead now and the "Lord" did not come back yet.
This is not a prophecy that should of been fulfilled. It is for the future and I say that, because it is speaking of the Resurrection. The Resurrection could not occur until the rebirth of Israel. And Israels rebirth could only occur after the Jewish people first returned from a worldwide exile, and they retook Jerusalem. Also, this event could not occur until the nations of the East had the ability to raise up an army of 200 million men. This could not of happened in Pauls day, and I doubt there were even 200 million men on the earth at that time, let alone an army of that number.
Paul in this verse was simply telling those of his time not to worry about their departed loved one's, because when God would return, He would first call them up out of their graves. Then those who were left alive would follow. When Paul used the word (we), he was speaking of the body of Christ. Paul, just like Jesus did not know the day or the hour of such an event. The Resurrection could not of happened in Pauls day, because the events that were necessary for it to occur had not been fulfilled yet.
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Old 02-15-2009, 10:14 AM
 
Location: Log home in the Appalachians
10,494 posts, read 10,086,205 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Campbell34 View Post
I believe God authored the Bible, and it was written by inspired men of God. And I believe the orginal Scripture to be true.
How many gods are there in your Bible?
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Old 02-15-2009, 11:11 AM
 
995 posts, read 1,176,581 times
Reputation: 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by Campbell34 View Post
This is not a prophecy that should of been fulfilled. It is for the future and I say that, because it is speaking of the Resurrection. The Resurrection could not occur until the rebirth of Israel. And Israels rebirth could only occur after the Jewish people first returned from a worldwide exile, and they retook Jerusalem. Also, this event could not occur until the nations of the East had the ability to raise up an army of 200 million men. This could not of happened in Pauls day, and I doubt there were even 200 million men on the earth at that time, let alone an army of that number.
Paul in this verse was simply telling those of his time not to worry about their departed loved one's, because when God would return, He would first call them up out of their graves. Then those who were left alive would follow. When Paul used the word (we), he was speaking of the body of Christ. Paul, just like Jesus did not know the day or the hour of such an event. The Resurrection could not of happened in Pauls day, because the events that were necessary for it to occur had not been fulfilled yet.
Thats the problem with most of the bible's 'prophecies' - a person can interpret them to suit this or that point in time whichever suits that person's views
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Old 02-15-2009, 11:13 AM
 
Location: southern california
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if not the last days a very good imitation. melt down of christian faith in america. of course when you got money its easy to be godless, we shall see. many will soon learn that tramp stamps are not a good substitute for christian courage.
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Old 02-15-2009, 11:14 AM
 
995 posts, read 1,176,581 times
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Out of curiosity,ptsum - do native americans worship 1 God (Great Spirit of the Sky ??) or a family of Gods or...
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Old 02-15-2009, 11:17 AM
 
Location: Log home in the Appalachians
10,494 posts, read 10,086,205 times
Reputation: 6839
Quote:
Originally Posted by braderjoe View Post
Out of curiosity,ptsum - do native americans worship 1 God (Great Spirit of the Sky ??) or a family of Gods or...
One Creator, known by different names from tribe to tribe,but still one Creator.
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