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Old 02-15-2009, 03:42 PM
 
995 posts, read 1,178,779 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Campbell34 View Post
This is the reason I believe in the three in one God. In the Scriptures God speaks to the other members of the Godhead. In the Old Testament it states that God created all things, and He did this (ALONE) and (BY HIMSELF). Yet in the New Testament it tells us, that Jesus created all things. The only way such a thing could be possible, is if both the God of the Old Testament, and Jesus of the New Testament = One God.
And that is why we read in 1 John 5:7,8 For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word (Jesus), and the Holy Spirit; and these three (ARE ONE).

The (US), is the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit who all = ONE GOD.
So..in the Old Testament its One God whereas in the New Testament its 1+1+1 God(s)? So how do you reconcile this? Which should you follow then? The OT or the NT? If its the NT then that mean one should not follow the OT? or vice versa?
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Old 02-15-2009, 04:00 PM
 
1,897 posts, read 3,042,919 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Campbell34 View Post
Matthew 24:30

New American Standard Bible- and then (all the tribes of the earth will mourn),

God's Word Translation-(All the people on earth will cry in agony) when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds

King James Bible-and then shall (all the tribes of the earth mourn),

American Standard Version- (all the tribes of the earth mourn),

Bible in Basic English-and then (all the nations of the earth will have sorrow),

Weymouth New Testament-and then will (all the nations of the earth lament),

Revelation 1:7 teaches that (all nations would mourn), and so does Matthew 24:30. It's pretty obvious, the Bible is not just speaking of (the tribes of the land), it is speaking of (ALL PEOPLE) on the planet. And such an event never occured in the past, yet it will occur in the future. Do not limit your understanding of the Scriptures, to one incorrect translation of that verse.
Campbell34: What is the context of Matthew 24? Jesus is speaking to His JEWISH disciples about things that were going to personally happen to them. He has just spoken to those adulterous, idolatrous, murderous Jews of His day (Matthew 23) telling THEM that THEY would see their Temple brought to the ground because the they and their generation were found guilty of "all the righteous blood shed on the earth" (Matthew 23).

When a word can have variant readings, the context determines which one we ascribe to. All of Matthew 24 is extremely Jewish in nature. The corrupt nature of that particular generation of Jews is clearly defined in Matthew 23. It is also the generation of Jews who would persecute and kill those sent to them (Matthew 24, see also Matthew 10). Also in Matthew 24 we see false prophets and the abomination of desolation--all very Jewish. And what follows verse 30, Campbell34? Verse 34! "Assuredly, I say to you, THIS generation will by no means pass away till ALL these things take place"--that includes verses 29-33!

Let's look at the CONTEXT of Revelation 1:7? Clearly, it follows the words spoken to John that he was to be shown the things which were to shortly take place because the time was near. The events of verse 7 fall within that time frame--the time that was in John's day near! Furthermore, as I mentioned before but you ignored, those who were to see Him "coming with clouds" are of the same generation of those "who pierced Him!" Therefore, in this particular context, the renderings "tribes" and "land" are extremely fitting!

All of this refers back to Zechariah 12:10. There also is found the reference to those who pierced Him! "In that day there shall be a great mourning in Jerusalem." In Jerusalem in that day (ca. A. D. 70) were found all the tribes of the land! Notice also that Zechariah 12:12 says that "the land shall mourn, every family by itself; the family of the house of David . . . the family of the house of Nathan . . . every family of the house of Levi." The tribes!

Consequently, Revelation 1:7, in its context, has to do with the tribes of Israel and not the peoples or nations of the whole earth! Jesus warned the "Daughters of Jerusalem" (very Jewish description) that they should weep for themselves and their children because judgment was coming upon them and their generation. When that time arrived (ca. A. D. 70) and hundreds of thousands of Jews perished and their Temple and city were raised to the ground, the tribes of the land mourned!

Yes, indeed, let's not limit our understanding of the Scriptures!

Preterist
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Old 02-15-2009, 04:12 PM
 
7,654 posts, read 9,702,210 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by braderjoe View Post
So..in the Old Testament its One God whereas in the New Testament its 1+1+1 God(s)? So how do you reconcile this? Which should you follow then? The OT or the NT? If its the NT then that mean one should not follow the OT? or vice versa?
The New Testament reveals more about the Trinity, yet in the Old Testament, the idea of God being more then one person is clearly stated.
We know that only God was involoved in creation, yet in the first book of the Old Testament it states. Let (US) make man in (OUR) image and in (OUR) likeness. The concept of the Trinity in the New Testament, is in harmony with the concept of God found in the Old Testament.
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Old 02-15-2009, 05:42 PM
 
Location: Southern Oregon
2,838 posts, read 4,049,379 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Campbell34 View Post
The New Testament reveals more about the Trinity, yet in the Old Testament, the idea of God being more then one person is clearly stated.
We know that only God was involoved in creation, yet in the first book of the Old Testament it states. Let (US) make man in (OUR) image and in (OUR) likeness. The concept of the Trinity in the New Testament, is in harmony with the concept of God found in the Old Testament.
I have always found this to be an interesting quote, Let us make man in our image and in our likeness. Mind you, God didn't say let us make Jesus in our image and likeness, God said, MAN. So what does that mean? Does it mean that all men are in the image and in the likeness of God, I would assume so. So what is the "image" of God, well, it says God is spirit, what is the likeness of God, I guess that all depends on what you read.
Man, upon reading this, turns around and creates God to be like mankind, after all we are in the image and likeness, so God must be like US. Man is hateful, waring in nature, ect, so then so must God be this way, this is why you see such a God in the OT. Man has denied himself what is his because man put man first, the stories in the OT are not about God, there about mankind itself. Then enters Jesus in the NT, what does man do, gives to one man that in which belongs to all. You create a demi-god for your own salvation. You have misses the mark again.
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Old 02-16-2009, 11:47 AM
 
Location: Log home in the Appalachians
10,495 posts, read 10,103,289 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Campbell34 View Post
The New Testament reveals more about the Trinity, yet in the Old Testament, the idea of God being more then one person is clearly stated.
We know that only God was involoved in creation, yet in the first book of the Old Testament it states. Let (US) make man in (OUR) image and in (OUR) likeness. The concept of the Trinity in the New Testament, is in harmony with the concept of God found in the Old Testament.
So in your holy book there is more than one God and yet you claim to worship only one God, so which is it and why the contradictions.
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Old 02-17-2009, 11:35 PM
 
995 posts, read 1,178,779 times
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Campbell...this is for you :

Say: He is Allah, the One and Only
Allah, the Eternal, Absolute
He begetteth not nor is He begotten.
And there is none like unto Him.
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Old 02-18-2009, 12:08 AM
 
7,654 posts, read 9,702,210 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Terryj View Post
I have always found this to be an interesting quote, Let us make man in our image and in our likeness. Mind you, God didn't say let us make Jesus in our image and likeness, God said, MAN. So what does that mean? Does it mean that all men are in the image and in the likeness of God, I would assume so. So what is the "image" of God, well, it says God is spirit, what is the likeness of God, I guess that all depends on what you read.
Man, upon reading this, turns around and creates God to be like mankind, after all we are in the image and likeness, so God must be like US. Man is hateful, waring in nature, ect, so then so must God be this way, this is why you see such a God in the OT. Man has denied himself what is his because man put man first, the stories in the OT are not about God, there about mankind itself. Then enters Jesus in the NT, what does man do, gives to one man that in which belongs to all. You create a demi-god for your own salvation. You have misses the mark again.
Your belief is based on your imagination. The prophecies of the Bible only reveal the truth of God and His Word the Bible. The Image of God has little to do with Gods personality. God always incourages man to take the high road, and man almost always finds a way to dismiss God, and His Words.
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Old 02-18-2009, 12:09 AM
 
7,654 posts, read 9,702,210 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by braderjoe View Post
Campbell...this is for you :

Say: He is Allah, the One and Only
Allah, the Eternal, Absolute
He begetteth not nor is He begotten.
And there is none like unto Him.
There is no other name given unto men to be saved, but the name Jesus Christ.
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Old 02-18-2009, 12:12 AM
 
7,654 posts, read 9,702,210 times
Reputation: 495
Quote:
Originally Posted by ptsum View Post
So in your holy book there is more than one God and yet you claim to worship only one God, so which is it and why the contradictions.
Your not paying attention. There is only (ONE GOD), yet He exist as three persons. And please, can you share with me some of those contradictions?
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Old 02-18-2009, 12:48 AM
 
7,654 posts, read 9,702,210 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Preterist View Post
Campbell34: What is the context of Matthew 24? Jesus is speaking to His JEWISH disciples about things that were going to personally happen to them. He has just spoken to those adulterous, idolatrous, murderous Jews of His day (Matthew 23) telling THEM that THEY would see their Temple brought to the ground because the they and their generation were found guilty of "all the righteous blood shed on the earth" (Matthew 23).

When a word can have variant readings, the context determines which one we ascribe to. All of Matthew 24 is extremely Jewish in nature. The corrupt nature of that particular generation of Jews is clearly defined in Matthew 23. It is also the generation of Jews who would persecute and kill those sent to them (Matthew 24, see also Matthew 10). Also in Matthew 24 we see false prophets and the abomination of desolation--all very Jewish. And what follows verse 30, Campbell34? Verse 34! "Assuredly, I say to you, THIS generation will by no means pass away till ALL these things take place"--that includes verses 29-33!

Let's look at the CONTEXT of Revelation 1:7? Clearly, it follows the words spoken to John that he was to be shown the things which were to shortly take place because the time was near. The events of verse 7 fall within that time frame--the time that was in John's day near! Furthermore, as I mentioned before but you ignored, those who were to see Him "coming with clouds" are of the same generation of those "who pierced Him!" Therefore, in this particular context, the renderings "tribes" and "land" are extremely fitting!

All of this refers back to Zechariah 12:10. There also is found the reference to those who pierced Him! "In that day there shall be a great mourning in Jerusalem." In Jerusalem in that day (ca. A. D. 70) were found all the tribes of the land! Notice also that Zechariah 12:12 says that "the land shall mourn, every family by itself; the family of the house of David . . . the family of the house of Nathan . . . every family of the house of Levi." The tribes!

Consequently, Revelation 1:7, in its context, has to do with the tribes of Israel and not the peoples or nations of the whole earth! Jesus warned the "Daughters of Jerusalem" (very Jewish description) that they should weep for themselves and their children because judgment was coming upon them and their generation. When that time arrived (ca. A. D. 70) and hundreds of thousands of Jews perished and their Temple and city were raised to the ground, the tribes of the land mourned!

Yes, indeed, let's not limit our understanding of the Scriptures!

Preterist
Preterist,
You can stop at your first sentence. Jesus did not tell His disciples that all the events of His prophecy would be expierenced by them. Because in Matthew 24:9 Jesus clearly tells them they will be handed over to be killed. And verse 8 tells you, all of these things are just (THE BEGINNING OF LABOR PAINS). And verse 14 clearly tells you that sometime after His Disciples are dead, the Gospel of the Kingdom will (THEN) be preached throughout the world. Do you understand, that most of this prophecy could only occur after Jesus disciples were already dead? And do you understand that the Gospel of the Kingdom could not be preached throughout the world in 50 years? And you have yet to tell me who that northern army was that God destroyed according to your belief that Joel 2 was fulfilled back then. Do you have any answers for these questions? And Zec. 12 was not fulfilled back then, because Juda was not retake first, that occured in 1948, and at no other time in history. Do you understend that? And do you understand that the Bible tells you all the nations of the earth will be gathered against it. That has never happened, do you understand this? And the Bible tells us that Jerusalem will be an Immovable rock. Do you understand that Jerusalem has always been a rock that has been moved. Yet in this time it shall remain Immovable. Do you understand this?
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