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Old 02-24-2009, 12:48 PM
 
7,654 posts, read 9,697,940 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by forkpower View Post
You arnt by chance saying that a prohpet coould have falsely interepreted the world around him to discern some "proof" of an ultimate greater meaning/being?

You have detailed exactly why i will never take any prophets words at face value. They can only describe what they see, and as you have pointed out, they may be greatly missinformed.

It by furthering our understanding of the world that we become more adjusted and comfortable with it. We know now that falling stars are actually not stars at all, they are metorites and other debrie. By interepreting them as the mystical workings of the divine is at best misinformed, at worst willfully ignorant. To then go on and preach ones misguided interepretations as truth, and to sway people in to believeing your truth is a very dangerous practice indeed.
There are prophecies in the Bible that we will not fully understand until the time of their fulfillment. Yet it would be a big mistake to suggest that none of them can be. We have enought examples of prophecies that were fulfilled in the past, and even in our present day, to dismiss your false belief. And it is your belief that requires one to be willfully ignorant of the prophecies that have already been proven. Often, to many people come her with a total lack of knowledge of the Scriptures, yet some how after reading just a few posts, they believe they can with authority, dismiss the truth of the Bible. Now, that is a dangerous practice.
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Old 02-24-2009, 01:11 PM
 
995 posts, read 1,178,205 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Campbell34 View Post
There are prophecies in the Bible that we will not fully understand until the time of their fulfillment. Yet it would be a big mistake to suggest that none of them can be. We have enought examples of prophecies that were fulfilled in the past, and even in our present day, to dismiss your false belief. And it is your belief that requires one to be willfully ignorant of the prophecies that have already been proven. Often, to many people come her with a total lack of knowledge of the Scriptures, yet some how after reading just a few posts, they believe they can with authority, dismiss the truth of the Bible. Now, that is a dangerous practice.
One doesnt just base one's religion on prophecies alone.. there's faith, clear-proof, a zero-error religious book etc
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Old 02-24-2009, 01:37 PM
 
Location: Wisconsin
521 posts, read 792,367 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Campbell34 View Post
There are prophecies in the Bible that we will not fully understand until the time of their fulfillment.

How convenient.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Campbell34 View Post
Yet it would be a big mistake to suggest that none of them can be. We have enought examples of prophecies that were fulfilled in the past, and even in our present day, to dismiss your false belief.

I have a feeling we'll be hearing about the East Gate prophecy again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Campbell34 View Post
And it is your belief that requires one to be willfully ignorant of the prophecies that have already been proven.

I think you may be missing my point a little here, i'll try and explain. Using your own example of missiles as falling stars, i was trying to show that misinterpretations of the world can lead one to create fantastical explanations for such events, or future events. When all it might take is a little research and investigation to find the answers behind such events. Willfully choosing not to know the explanation behind things, and simply accepting what someone else tells you as fact, is willfully choosing ignorance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Campbell34 View Post
Often, to many people come her with a total lack of knowledge of the Scriptures, yet some how after reading just a few posts, they believe they can with authority, dismiss the truth of the Bible. Now, that is a dangerous practice.

I made no quotes or references to any scriptures or the bible, but rather your interpretations of them that you expressed.

Often, too many people come here with a total lack of knowledge about an individual, yet some after reading just a few posts think that they can accurately measure that individuals knowledge on certain topics.
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Old 02-24-2009, 02:37 PM
 
Location: Victoria, BC.
30,046 posts, read 30,801,451 times
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Originally Posted by braderjoe View Post
One doesnt just base one's religion on prophecies alone.. there's faith, clear-proof, a zero-error religious book etc
Are you suggesting that the quran is without error?
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Old 02-24-2009, 07:29 PM
 
1,897 posts, read 3,042,080 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Campbell34 View Post
Preterist,
You can stop at your first sentence. Jesus did not tell His disciples that all the events of His prophecy would be expierenced by them. Because in Matthew 24:9 Jesus clearly tells them they will be handed over to be killed. And verse 8 tells you, all of these things are just (THE BEGINNING OF LABOR PAINS). And verse 14 clearly tells you that sometime after His Disciples are dead, the Gospel of the Kingdom will (THEN) be preached throughout the world. Do you understand, that most of this prophecy could only occur after Jesus disciples were already dead? And do you understand that the Gospel of the Kingdom could not be preached throughout the world in 50 years? And you have yet to tell me who that northern army was that God destroyed according to your belief that Joel 2 was fulfilled back then. Do you have any answers for these questions? And Zec. 12 was not fulfilled back then, because Juda was not retake first, that occured in 1948, and at no other time in history. Do you understend that? And do you understand that the Bible tells you all the nations of the earth will be gathered against it. That has never happened, do you understand this? And the Bible tells us that Jerusalem will be an Immovable rock. Do you understand that Jerusalem has always been a rock that has been moved. Yet in this time it shall remain Immovable. Do you understand this?
Campbell34: This is what I understand. Jesus answered the question posed by His disciples by telling them the things that were going to happen to them. This entire passage is clearly confined to their generation. Sadly, Campbell34, you do not understand the meaning of "this generation." And you do not understand the meaning of simple direct address. There are at least 20 yous in this passage. They ALL refer to those disciples with Jesus! The most significant one is found in verse 15. Do you understand that Jesus is telling those very disciples that THEY will see the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel? You will not see it. I will not see. No one was to see it except those of that generation. The words are clear. I do not understand why you do not understand.

Furthermore, your ascertain that the disciples must be dead before certain other things can happen is erroneous. There is no clear chronology is this passage. Jesus does not say when they will be killed--you are inferring what He never implied! Again, they were not yet dead were they IF THEY would see the abomination of desolation? Jesus told THEM that THEY would see it! When was that to occur? Read Luke 21--he describes it as that time when Jerusalem was surrounded by armies! If the disciples were to see the abomination of desolation which involved the time of the surrounding of Jerusalem by armies, then they were alive! Furthermore, they did not ALL have to be alive for these things to remain true about THEM!

And you do not understand that Paul clearly stated that the Gospel had been preached in ALL THE WORLD--HAD BEEN! Read Colossians 1. It couldn't be clearer. The Gospel had come unto the Colossians "as it is in all the world" (verse 5). In verse 23, we read that the Colossians had heard the hope of the Gospel "which WAS PREACHED to EVERY creature that is under heaven. What do you not understand? Do you have any answers?

Do you really understand Zechariah 12? It has absolutely nothing to do with 1948! Again, in Acts 2 Peter makes it clear that Joel 2 was fulfilled in that very day--Pentecost! "THIS IS THAT which was spoken through the prophet JOEL: And it shall come to pass in THE LAST DAYS, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams."

As for the nations--the Roman empire was made up of many nations. They were joined together against the Jews in the Jewish Wars (A. D. 66-70)! Study the history of this period. A consideration of the eyewitness accounts of Josephus would also be very enlightening.

Campbell34, I do not mean to be unkind, but you will never understand this passage or other passages until you allow the simple words of Scripture to say what they say. You can attempt to reason things away all you want, but that won't change anything. Those very disciples with Jesus were to understand the parable of the fig tree (nothing to do with Israel--it's just a fig tree!). The parable was that when a fig tree begins to bud, one knows that summer is near. As surely as THEY understood the budding of the fig tree to be a sign of the coming of summer, so THEY themselves in that generation were to recognize the signs of His coming and know that it was near--at the doors! When would these things all happen? "THIS GENERATION will by no means pass away till ALL THESE THINGS take place." And they did.

Yes, I do not understand your misinterpretation of this clear passage. And you will never understand unless you allow it to say what it says!

In Christ, Preterist
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Old 02-24-2009, 07:52 PM
 
Location: Boise
2,008 posts, read 2,917,775 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Campbell34 View Post
From the Book "The Vision" Authored by David Wilkerson copyright 1974

David Wilkerson, a Christian Minister of the Gospel was given a vision of things that would first happen before the return of Jesus Christ. This vision was given to him about 35 years ago. Today, we can see the result of his prophecy. Keep in mind, this was all written down 35 years ago.

1. God is going to bring a limited time of freedom to those who live in the Communist countries. A temporary truce between the east and the west will occur so the Gospel can be preached there. Russia, China, and Eastern Europe will be opened up to the Gospel.

2. There is coming a worldwide economic confusion, a recession that will affect nearly every wage earner around the world.

3. America will see some of it's most popular corporations go bankrupt.

4. There will be a flurry of near panic decisions made by the American government that will backfire.

5. The American auto industry will be hurt badly.

6. There is coming a backlash against the environmentalist movement. It will become popular to speak out against programs proposed by governement environmentalists.

8. Most of the world leaders will blame America for this coming economic recession.

9. Many people will be unable to pay off their credit card companies, and this will cause a near-chaos situation.

10. There will be a partial and almost a complete recovery from the coming recession, yet the world economy will be in a state of confusion until the day of the Antichrist. There will always be uncertainty about the economic conditions untill his arrival.

11. Soon, many ministers and priest will be exposed for the sexual sins they are now secretly indulging in. There are some very well known ministers who will soon be exposed. Wilkerson said, from God's throne room he has heard, that this sin must be purged.

12. The sin of Sodom will be coming. Soon, homosexuals will be coming out in mass numbers. And soon, the homosexual community will be seen on network talk shows promoting their lifestyle.
Other than the asinine parts in here, my dad saw a lot of this coming since about 1980. I guess he has a line with god.

And a guy named Karl Marx saw a few of these things coming quite a long time ago - I guess he really had a line to god
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Old 02-24-2009, 07:53 PM
 
1,897 posts, read 3,042,080 times
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Originally Posted by Campbell34 View Post
Christians in the 1600s and the 1800s wrote books that stated that based on the prophecies of the Bible, Christ could not return to earth until certain events first occured. According to these Christians, the one main event that first had to happen, was the return of the Jewish people from a worldwide exile. And they said they would both return to the land of Israel, and they would retake Jerusalem. And they said this return would anger many nations around the world. Christians who knew their Bible back then, obviously knew the future because their statments were both accurate and true. When Jesus said this GENERATION, if you read the verse before that statement, it was the generation that saw the (FIG TREE FIRST SHOOT FORTH IT'S BRNCHES).
The fig tree in Scripture represents Israel. Israels rebirth occured in the year, (1948). Also in the Book of Ezekiel chapters 36,37,and 39 it states, that the Jewish people would return to the land of Israel, and Jerusalem in the latter days. We are now living in those latter days.
Campbell34: Again, you are misinterpreting the Scriptures and giving people such as Mattie Jo legitimate cause to question our beliefs.

Let me make this clear to Mattie Jo and others with legitimate questions and concerns. There is a growing segment of Christianity that does not believe as you do, Campbell34. You do not speak for us. The premillennial, pretribulation dispensationalist with his postponement and dual fulfillment theories opens the door to critics and skeptics to rightly accuse the Church of making Jesus and the apostles liars by claiming certain things have not happened when Jesus and the apostles clearly said they would.

The fact remains that there is NOTHING in the parable of the fig tree of Matthew 24 concerning 1948! It is a fig tree and nothing else. Furthermore, how many times must you be shown that "this generation means THIS GENERATION and not any other. Jesus promised to come back in that generation and the apostles taught the same thing. And He did. Just because you cannot see the past fulfillment of His coming does not make it null and void.

We are NOT living in the latter days. The last days are clearly defined by a comparison of Joel 2 and Acts 2! They were then in the last days. The writer of Hebrews also makes that clear in the very first chapter when he writes--"In THESE last days." The problem is the error in understanding this question--the last days of what? It was not the last days of the world but the last days of the age--the age of Old Covenant Judaism. Read Hebrews 8 which demonstrates that the old was passing away and becoming obsolete. This happened in A. D. 70 when the power of the holy people (the Jews) was shattered (Daniel 12). The New Covenant age was established at the passing of the Old. Those were the latter days!

It is time Christianity defends the honor of our Lord by taking Him at His word and not making Him out to be a liar before an unbelieving world!

Preterist
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Old 02-24-2009, 08:44 PM
 
1,897 posts, read 3,042,080 times
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Originally Posted by Campbell34 View Post
The Bible states that the cities of Babylon would be destroyed in the day that the nations of the East would be able to raise up an army of 200 million men. The only time the nations of the east had the ability to put together an army of that size is in the very day we live. And back in 1960, China a nation in the east stated that they could raise up an army of 200 million men. They gave the same number which the Bible stated. According to the Bible, the cities of Babylon would all be destroyed in one hours time, this would of been impossible to do in the past, and only in our generation has such advanced weapons been developed that could destroy numerous cities all in one hours time. Also, it states that after this attack no one would ever be able to live in the land again, because the land will be polluted. It goes so far as to say, no one will even be able to return to the land to remove a stone for a foundation, becuase of that pollution. America is described in Jer. chapters 50, and 51, and Revelation 18. Russia is described in Ezekiel chapter 38.
How many times do I have to answer the same questions? You simply don't like my biblical answers!

Preterist
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Old 02-24-2009, 08:55 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Campbell34 View Post
When in the first-century could the nations of the East raise up an army of 200 million men? When in the first century could the nations of the East destroy a city in one hours time?
Campbell34: It is not always wise to press large, rounded numbers too hard (e.g. 1000 years, 144,000, etc.). The Book of Revelation is filled with symbolism. We must learn to recognize it and not take some things too literally--such as a large, rounded numbers! Campbell34, I suspect that you are an empiricist. Jesus could have said "I am coming back in A. D. 70," and you still would not believe Him because you cannot see the fulfillment.

What did Jesus clearly say? (Matthew 10:23; 16:27, 28; 24:34; 26:64; John 14). What is the timing of the things John was shown in the Revelation? When will you acknowledge and accept the clear time statements in the Scriptures and stop negating them by your lack of "seeing."

You are grabbing things out of the OT and wrongly thrusting their prophecies into our future and beyond. You are also misunderstanding symbolism and OT prophetic apocalyptic language.

I think we have said all we can say. You ask questions, I answer you, you don't like my answers, so you ask the same questions again. I again challenge you: What saith the Scriptures?

Preterist
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Old 02-24-2009, 11:25 PM
 
7,654 posts, read 9,697,940 times
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Originally Posted by braderjoe View Post
One doesnt just base one's religion on prophecies alone.. there's faith, clear-proof, a zero-error religious book etc
One should base their faith on the truth, and the Bible offers us that truth. As I have stated before, every new historical discovery only confirms the Bible. And the only ones who do not confirm the Bible, are those making assumptions about it, and they do this without presenting evidence. Just their personal opinion.
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