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Old 03-01-2009, 06:41 AM
 
7,654 posts, read 9,675,704 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MontanaGuy View Post
Preterist wrote:

He happens to be one of the greatest Americans who ever lived and was a deeply intellectual free thinking man. Revelations isn't a very large book in the Bible, I read the whole thing a couple of weeks ago as I have in the past and it still doesn't make a lick of sense.
The Book of Revelation will make little sense to you, unless you know the other prophecies of the Bible. Revelation contains only part of the Bibles prophecies. It requires the prophecies from both the Old and new Testaments to understand the Book of Revelation.
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Old 03-06-2009, 09:07 PM
 
1,897 posts, read 3,035,606 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Preterist,

I have stayed out of the more specific eschatological threads (Rapture, Trib . . . whatever). But I think I should point out a logical inconsistency in your general delimiting of the scope of prophesy. If you try to limit the scope of prophesy . . you only discredit the very basis for expecting and believing in Jesus (and eliminate the more compelling millennia-long fulfillment thereof by the actualized societal phenomenon of Jesus . . . Christianity). Just saying.
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Old 03-06-2009, 09:17 PM
 
1,897 posts, read 3,035,606 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MontanaGuy View Post
Preterist wrote:

He happens to be one of the greatest Americans who ever lived and was a deeply intellectual free thinking man. Revelations isn't a very large book in the Bible, I read the whole thing a couple of weeks ago as I have in the past and it still doesn't make a lick of sense.
Greetings, MontanaGuy: Try reading it again in its historical setting--the Jewish Wars of A. D. 66-70. John wrote of the things which were to shortly take place because the time was then near. The book is shrouded in mystery by those who erroneously catapult it thousands of years into the future. Everything becomes meaningless, groundless, unbiblical speculation (Hal Lindsey for example).

The churches mentioned are actual churches of that day who are suffering persecution from both the Romans and the Jews. The symbols throughout the book are very Jewish because the Revelation is the account of God's coming in judgment against them (those guilty of all the righteous blood shed on the earth--Matthew 23). The Revelation deals with the horrendous tribulation brought against that generation of Jews by God's instrument of punishment--Rome! It is also the story of the ultimate victory of the true Israel of God--those circumcised in their hearts through the New Covenant in His blood! It is the ending of the age of Old Covenant Judaism (the old heavens and old earth) and the establishing of the age of the New Covenant in Christ (the new heavens and new earth).

It is John's Olivet Discourse! The synoptic writers were given only an outline--John was taken up in the Spirit and given all the details! That is the Revelation! It was a prophecy book to John who wrote it and to those who first read it. It is a history book to us!

Preterist
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Old 03-06-2009, 09:17 PM
 
37,508 posts, read 25,238,629 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Preterist View Post
It is only through prophesy that does NOT pertain to the time when the prophets made them (i.e. were definitely future-oriented) . . . that we have any reason to believe that Jesus has any validity. It is by the continued fulfillment of additional prophesies through the milliennia that we feel even more confident in the validity of Jesus Take away the validation by future events that could not have been remotely even guessed at during the time of the prophets and you eliminate much of the power of scriptural revelation. Clearer?
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Old 03-07-2009, 10:10 AM
 
7,654 posts, read 9,675,704 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Preterist View Post
Greetings, MontanaGuy: Try reading it again in its historical setting--the Jewish Wars of A. D. 66-70. John wrote of the things which were to shortly take place because the time was then near. The book is shrouded in mystery by those who erroneously catapult it thousands of years into the future. Everything becomes meaningless, groundless, unbiblical speculation (Hal Lindsey for example).

The churches mentioned are actual churches of that day who are suffering persecution from both the Romans and the Jews. The symbols throughout the book are very Jewish because the Revelation is the account of God's coming in judgment against them (those guilty of all the righteous blood shed on the earth--Matthew 23). The Revelation deals with the horrendous tribulation brought against that generation of Jews by God's instrument of punishment--Rome! It is also the story of the ultimate victory of the true Israel of God--those circumcised in their hearts through the New Covenant in His blood! It is the ending of the age of Old Covenant Judaism (the old heavens and old earth) and the establishing of the age of the New Covenant in Christ (the new heavens and new earth).

It is John's Olivet Discourse! The synoptic writers were given only an outline--John was taken up in the Spirit and given all the details! That is the Revelation! It was a prophecy book to John who wrote it and to those who first read it. It is a history book to us!

Preterist
Preterist, you say that because the prophecy states this will shortly come to pass, you believe it must mean only in that time. Yet why do you continue to ignore my question? You stated that Joel 2 was fulfilled shortly after Christ died on the cross. Yet if that was the case, who was the great northern army that God removed in that prophecy? And when did God remove that great northern Army? It's obvious that Joel 2 was not fulfilled in that time, so why do you keep saying that prophecy was fulfill back then? DO YOU HAVE AN ANSWER FOR ME, OR ARE YOU JUST GOING TO CLAM UP AGAIN? Preterist, if Joel 2 was fulfilled, who was the great northern army God removed? And what time in history did this occur?
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Old 07-08-2009, 12:54 PM
 
Location: Baltimore, MD
897 posts, read 2,211,642 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Campbell34 View Post
From the Book "The Vision" Authored by David Wilkerson copyright 1974

David Wilkerson, a Christian Minister of the Gospel was given a vision of things that would first happen before the return of Jesus Christ. This vision was given to him about 35 years ago. Today, we can see the result of his prophecy. Keep in mind, this was all written down 35 years ago.

1. God is going to bring a limited time of freedom to those who live in the Communist countries. A temporary truce between the east and the west will occur so the Gospel can be preached there. Russia, China, and Eastern Europe will be opened up to the Gospel.

2. There is coming a worldwide economic confusion, a recession that will affect nearly every wage earner around the world.

3. America will see some of it's most popular corporations go bankrupt.

4. There will be a flurry of near panic decisions made by the American government that will backfire.

5. The American auto industry will be hurt badly.

6. There is coming a backlash against the environmentalist movement. It will become popular to speak out against programs proposed by governement environmentalists.

8. Most of the world leaders will blame America for this coming economic recession.

9. Many people will be unable to pay off their credit card companies, and this will cause a near-chaos situation.

10. There will be a partial and almost a complete recovery from the coming recession, yet the world economy will be in a state of confusion until the day of the Antichrist. There will always be uncertainty about the economic conditions untill his arrival.

11. Soon, many ministers and priest will be exposed for the sexual sins they are now secretly indulging in. There are some very well known ministers who will soon be exposed. Wilkerson said, from God's throne room he has heard, that this sin must be purged.

12. The sin of Sodom will be coming. Soon, homosexuals will be coming out in mass numbers. And soon, the homosexual community will be seen on network talk shows promoting their lifestyle.
I read the book and it is a joke.
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Old 07-08-2009, 01:15 PM
 
Location: Swamps of Florida
3,412 posts, read 9,028,757 times
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Everything that goes up goes down, and everything that goes down goes up.
So much for the prophecies.
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Old 07-08-2009, 07:22 PM
 
31,385 posts, read 31,062,067 times
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If some cat in the 4th Century B.C.E. wrote that, "when Web 2.0 brings the word of God to the multitudes, the Kingdom of heaven will be found on MySpace." Then I would be impressed.
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Old 07-09-2009, 07:01 AM
 
34,508 posts, read 8,896,494 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Campbell34 View Post
Preterist, you say that because the prophecy states this will shortly come to pass, you believe it must mean only in that time. Yet why do you continue to ignore my question? You stated that Joel 2 was fulfilled shortly after Christ died on the cross. Yet if that was the case, who was the great northern army that God removed in that prophecy? And when did God remove that great northern Army? It's obvious that Joel 2 was not fulfilled in that time, so why do you keep saying that prophecy was fulfill back then? DO YOU HAVE AN ANSWER FOR ME, OR ARE YOU JUST GOING TO CLAM UP AGAIN? Preterist, if Joel 2 was fulfilled, who was the great northern army God removed? And what time in history did this occur?
Thanks Campbell. This could refer to a number of 'Northern armies' from the seleucids to the Crusaders, but let's look at the evidence.

Joel. 3:1 For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again 8799) the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem...
3:6 The children also of Judah and the children of Jerusalem have ye sold unto the Grecians, that ye might remove them far from their border.

Wiki says on Joel
"Scholars debate the date of Joel with five main schools of thought:
835-796BC During the time when Joash was too young to govern and Jehoiada did so in his place (2 Kings 11; 2 Chron. 23-24).
About 775-725BC Roughly contemporary with Hosea and Amos.
About 500BC Roughly contemporary with Zechariah.
About 639-608BC during Josiah's reign.
About 400BC After the Babylonian Captivity (Post-Exilic) and roughly contemporary with Malachi and possibly later than Malachi
Support for a post-exilic date includes:[1]
The capture of Jerusalem and subsequent captivity is referenced as happening in the past (Joel 1:6-7,9-11; 3:1,5-6,17)"

So the indication is that Joel is writing about the events that led to the Babylonian captivity and the 'Northern army' (with chariots) is the army of the 2nd Babylonian Empire. 627-539 B.C. The reference to selling children to the Greeks (presumably as slaves) would coincide with the Hellenes in the centuries before the Persian and Peloponnesian wars. At that time, they had considerable presence overseas, notably trading and settling in the Egyptian delta.

There is no reason for Joel (who was tearing his hair out over the Babylonian captivity at the time) to be writing propecies of the Romans in 60 A.D or at any time after that. Thanks for your help on that one.

Last edited by TRANSPONDER; 07-09-2009 at 07:21 AM..
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Old 07-09-2009, 01:50 PM
 
Location: Brooklyn
40,057 posts, read 29,723,218 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ovcatto View Post
If some cat in the 4th Century B.C.E. wrote that, "when Web 2.0 brings the word of God to the multitudes, the Kingdom of heaven will be found on MySpace." Then I would be impressed.
Is that not written in the Book of Google?
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