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Old 02-03-2009, 07:23 AM
 
Location: South Africa
5,563 posts, read 6,148,080 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MontanaGuy View Post
cncracer wrote:

Dammit, I know it, but I've tried putting up flashy billboards and neon signs next to my nest and I still can't seem to attract a mate!
Try "rich guy lives here"
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Old 02-03-2009, 08:20 AM
 
1,788 posts, read 4,148,556 times
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This thread brings up an interesting side-question. Animals such as elephants and primates have been taught to paint abstracts or play musical instruments. This is a fact. So, since paintings and music are both art, is what these animals do considered art? Or is it merely an action they've been trained to do? They certainly seem to enjoy doing it, once they've been shown how.

So...the question is does art require intent? Or can art happen by chance, without intelligent intent driving it?
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Old 02-03-2009, 08:23 AM
 
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Default Art for art's sake

You mean like a dog without a bone, like an actor all alone?

"Art needs no audience"----Britney Spears
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Old 02-03-2009, 08:26 AM
 
4,512 posts, read 6,580,670 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZugZub View Post
This thread brings up an interesting side-question. Animals such as elephants and primates have been taught to paint abstracts or play musical instruments. This is a fact. So, since paintings and music are both art, is what these animals do considered art? Or is it merely an action they've been trained to do? They certainly seem to enjoy doing it, once they've been shown how.

So...the question is does art require intent? Or can art happen by chance, without intelligent intent driving it?
Yeah.

i have seen (domestic) animals relating to humans so as to imitate their habits as if to show them, look, i know what you like. Or in the case of an impending earthquake, what you need.

and not that i would have had any intent to "train" them.
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Old 02-03-2009, 09:28 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by effie briest View Post
Yeah.

i have seen (domestic) animals relating to humans so as to imitate their habits as if to show them, look, i know what you like. Or in the case of an impending earthquake, what you need.

and not that i would have had any intent to "train" them.
I don't think you're understanding the question I'm asking...does a work of art require that its maker intended for it to be art?

When a chimpanzee paints an abstract painting, is he doing that because he has an artistic vision in his head of what it should look like, or is he doing it because he knows it's an action that pleases his trainer? If he's merely imitating the trainer, is it art? And if it's merely an action performed in order to receive a reward from the trainer, is it still art, or is it not art? This is what I mean by "does art require intent".
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Old 02-03-2009, 09:30 AM
 
1,788 posts, read 4,148,556 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Awesomegenius View Post
You mean like a dog without a bone, like an actor all alone?

"Art needs no audience"----Britney Spears
No, that's not what I mean. Art does not require an audience in order to be art. I'm asking if it requires the conscious intent that it BE ART in order to be so.
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Old 02-03-2009, 09:41 AM
 
Location: Nashville, Tn
7,916 posts, read 16,399,669 times
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AwesomeGenius wrote:
Quote:
"Art needs no audience"----Britney Spears
Well, from my humble point of view, Britney Spears doesn't deserve an audience.

ZugZub wrote:
Quote:
I don't think you're understanding the question I'm asking...does a work of art require that its maker intended for it to be art?
No, I don't think it does. I think that the creative nature of an individual which is being expressed in some form is just following a natural inclination and doesn't have to be classified by that individual as art. It seems to me that someone with no outside influences regarding the definition of art wouldn't view their own creative activities as something that required a different category than any of their other activities.
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Old 02-03-2009, 09:50 AM
BST
 
Location: Powell, TN
451 posts, read 1,019,405 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZugZub View Post
No, that's not what I mean. Art does not require an audience in order to be art. I'm asking if it requires the conscious intent that it BE ART in order to be so.

I once took a hike with friends who brought their dog on a leash. We rounded a bend and saw a felled tree with interesting textures at its base. The dog saw the same tree, but the shadows made the tree appear to have wide eyes and open jaws - textbook aggressive posture for a dog. My friends' dog went ballistic. She had seen something abstract and interpreted it as something meaningful to her. Could that be art appreciation? or just a fight/flight response?

I think art appreciation requires some form of cognition. The art is only 'seen' by the handler. The animal is conditioned thru positive reinforcement to recreate the handler's 'art.' Humans do it because it's pleasing to us on some level regardless of what others think.
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Old 02-03-2009, 09:52 AM
 
Location: Western Cary, NC
4,349 posts, read 6,487,565 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MontanaGuy View Post
cncracer wrote:

Dammit, I know it, but I've tried putting up flashy billboards and neon signs next to my nest and I still can't seem to attract a mate!
You just have to keep adding sticks to the nest and in time the perfect mate comes along with poor vision and redesigns the nest, throws out your toys, and directs what you can and cannot eat, read, or watch. Sounds funny, but it is really much better that way????
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Old 02-03-2009, 09:56 AM
 
4,512 posts, read 6,580,670 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZugZub View Post
I don't think you're understanding the question I'm asking...does a work of art require that its maker intended for it to be art?

When a chimpanzee paints an abstract painting, is he doing that because he has an artistic vision in his head of what it should look like, or is he doing it because he knows it's an action that pleases his trainer? If he's merely imitating the trainer, is it art? And if it's merely an action performed in order to receive a reward from the trainer, is it still art, or is it not art? This is what I mean by "does art require intent".

right. you don't think.that i'm understanding...

what would be intent? what art?

i took a mutual and loving kind of understanding for granted.

sorry if it distracts your individual thinking already.
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