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Old 02-08-2009, 08:12 AM
 
2,255 posts, read 4,795,438 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Predos View Post
You know, the more and louder people like Campbell proclaim their version of the truth of the bible, the more they display their doubt. If the truth was there and as evident as they claim, they would not have to continue to find justifications to make their answers fit every question (which continually fail to really justify anything).

If it were true, would it not be so evident that their could be no questions?
Let's call it both ways. While I'm with many of you in not liking tons of the religious garbage out there, I'm equally disappointed when the Secularist garbage is shoved down mankind's throat and with Laws to back it up and enforce it one others.

I don't believe in "Creationism", as I see a more specific scientific observations which do agree with the truth on the actual account in the bible which is nothing more than a record of an order of appearance of various aspects of the natural world. No mechanics of how it was done whatsoever. I'm equally disappointed in the "Evolutionary" theory being legally forced down everyone's throat. Generally on this forum, anyone these debates are over nothing more than mechanics of how both sides THINK the natural world came about. What I find interesting about your comment above, is that it should be the same standard that is held up to Secularist, but it's not. Let's just take "Evolution" as a Secularist example. If it is indeed the pure as the driven snow "Truth", then it should be able to stand on it's own merits. Whenever such a theory needs to be legally protected, it's probably neither a good idea or a good regulation. Again, if it's the pure as the driven snow truth, then that truth will prevail no matter what. The truth does not need to be sheltered inside an official edict.

The reality is that no one has ever observed or seen any type Darwinism at work. Most adherents understanding is high school or college biology classes, Media reports and television documentaries, or perhaps Science magazines and journals. Neither Creationist nor Evolutionist can prove the actual mechanics one way or the other. But I suppose mankind has all eternity to do so.

Personally, I would'nt want either Creationism or Evolutionism backed by Laws and being shoved and forced down my kids throats. However, I suppose not believing in getting myself involved in Politics, I have no real say here anyway. But in the interests of discussions here in this forum, you need to call it both ways.
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Old 02-08-2009, 08:26 AM
 
Location: Midwest
29,091 posts, read 18,380,003 times
Reputation: 6952
Quote:
Originally Posted by Campbell34 View Post
Countradictions can be found in the numerous translations, yet if you go back to the originals copies there are no countradictions. Some of the new translations of the Bible have been so fooled with, that errors are easy to find. That is why we have to go back to the earliest copies to insure that we have the correct wording. Thankfully, we have such copies. The Bible tell us, there will be no peace on earth until Jesus Christ returns.
According to Bart Ehrman, a world class biblical scholar, there are many problems and differences with the earliest manuscripts of the NT.

One such example is the writings of John 7:53-8:12. These passages are not found in the oldest manuscripts of the Gospel of John.

Many, many, more examples of rather significant differences of the oldest known manuscripts of the NT and what are bible contains today are explained in his book entitled, "Misquoting Jesus."
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Old 02-08-2009, 08:46 AM
 
Location: Victoria, BC.
30,038 posts, read 30,671,240 times
Reputation: 12213
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluepacific View Post
Let's call it both ways. While I'm with many of you in not liking tons of the religious garbage out there, I'm equally disappointed when the Secularist garbage is shoved down mankind's throat and with Laws to back it up and enforce it one others.

I don't believe in "Creationism", as I see a more specific scientific observations which do agree with the truth on the actual account in the bible which is nothing more than a record of an order of appearance of various aspects of the natural world. No mechanics of how it was done whatsoever. I'm equally disappointed in the "Evolutionary" theory being legally forced down everyone's throat. Generally on this forum, anyone these debates are over nothing more than mechanics of how both sides THINK the natural world came about. What I find interesting about your comment above, is that it should be the same standard that is held up to Secularist, but it's not. Let's just take "Evolution" as a Secularist example. If it is indeed the pure as the driven snow "Truth", then it should be able to stand on it's own merits. Whenever such a theory needs to be legally protected, it's probably neither a good idea or a good regulation. Again, if it's the pure as the driven snow truth, then that truth will prevail no matter what. The truth does not need to be sheltered inside an official edict.

The reality is that no one has ever observed or seen any type Darwinism at work. Most adherents understanding is high school or college biology classes, Media reports and television documentaries, or perhaps Science magazines and journals. Neither Creationist nor Evolutionist can prove the actual mechanics one way or the other. But I suppose mankind has all eternity to do so.

Personally, I would'nt want either Creationism or Evolutionism backed by Laws and being shoved and forced down my kids throats. However, I suppose not believing in getting myself involved in Politics, I have no real say here anyway. But in the interests of discussions here in this forum, you need to call it both ways.

I don't know why you think evolution ( It's not Darwinism by the way) has not been observed...It certainly has and is an observable, tested and proven theory. ( Please tell me that you understand the scientific definition of the term "theory")

How do you think it is legally protected?...That's a new one on me. It doesn't need protection as it stands on it's own merits as valid proven science, and as such is taught in schools...Taught, mind you no ramming of throats required. The only folks I know of that attack evolution are creationists.
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Old 02-08-2009, 12:19 PM
 
Location: The land where cats rule
10,946 posts, read 7,976,337 times
Reputation: 3602
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluepacific View Post
Let's call it both ways. While I'm with many of you in not liking tons of the religious garbage out there, I'm equally disappointed when the Secularist garbage is shoved down mankind's throat and with Laws to back it up and enforce it one others.

I don't believe in "Creationism", as I see a more specific scientific observations which do agree with the truth on the actual account in the bible which is nothing more than a record of an order of appearance of various aspects of the natural world. No mechanics of how it was done whatsoever. I'm equally disappointed in the "Evolutionary" theory being legally forced down everyone's throat. Generally on this forum, anyone these debates are over nothing more than mechanics of how both sides THINK the natural world came about. What I find interesting about your comment above, is that it should be the same standard that is held up to Secularist, but it's not. Let's just take "Evolution" as a Secularist example. If it is indeed the pure as the driven snow "Truth", then it should be able to stand on it's own merits. Whenever such a theory needs to be legally protected, it's probably neither a good idea or a good regulation. Again, if it's the pure as the driven snow truth, then that truth will prevail no matter what. The truth does not need to be sheltered inside an official edict.

The reality is that no one has ever observed or seen any type Darwinism at work. Most adherents understanding is high school or college biology classes, Media reports and television documentaries, or perhaps Science magazines and journals. Neither Creationist nor Evolutionist can prove the actual mechanics one way or the other. But I suppose mankind has all eternity to do so.

Personally, I would'nt want either Creationism or Evolutionism backed by Laws and being shoved and forced down my kids throats. However, I suppose not believing in getting myself involved in Politics, I have no real say here anyway. But in the interests of discussions here in this forum, you need to call it both ways.
Unfortunatly from the creationist point of view, no discussion is to be permited. They say the bible or nothing. To be truly discussed, opposing views need to be viewed as having some validity.
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Old 02-08-2009, 02:20 PM
 
1,897 posts, read 3,034,991 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Predos View Post
Unfortunatly from the creationist point of view, no discussion is to be permited. They say the bible or nothing. To be truly discussed, opposing views need to be viewed as having some validity.
Predos: No creationist I know wants the teaching of evolution removed from the schools. Education, after all, involves the teaching of things that are common beliefs or teachings in our world or society. Do we forbid the teaching of Marxism even though we do not agree with it? Of course! Do
we teach about opposing philosophies? Yes. Do we teach about opposing religions (with the exception of Christianity which was asked to stay away) that exist and have existed in our world? Yes!

Creationism is believed by a very large group of people--that group of people should be represented and its views taught. The bottom line is that, in spite of all of their hype, evolutionists cannot prove what they posit and their position is as much a system of faith as that of the creationist.

The foundation of good science is observation. What we unavoidably observe is more supportive of intelligent design than random, chance evolution. The question of the origin of life comes to the minds of all of us at one time or another. We owe it to our children to present every perspective and let them decide which one is the most plausible.

Preterist
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Old 02-08-2009, 06:29 PM
 
1,186 posts, read 2,023,756 times
Reputation: 91
There are four heavenly books which Allaah sent down. They are the Tawraat (Torah), Injeel (Gospel), Zaboor (Psalms)and the Qur’aan
It is obligatory to believe in all the Books which....Islam Question and Answer - Belief in the Books and Messengers
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Old 02-09-2009, 07:38 AM
 
Location: The land where cats rule
10,946 posts, read 7,976,337 times
Reputation: 3602
Quote:
Originally Posted by Preterist View Post
Predos: No creationist I know wants the teaching of evolution removed from the schools. Education, after all, involves the teaching of things that are common beliefs or teachings in our world or society. Do we forbid the teaching of Marxism even though we do not agree with it? Of course! Do
we teach about opposing philosophies? Yes. Do we teach about opposing religions (with the exception of Christianity which was asked to stay away) that exist and have existed in our world? Yes!

Creationism is believed by a very large group of people--that group of people should be represented and its views taught. The bottom line is that, in spite of all of their hype, evolutionists cannot prove what they posit and their position is as much a system of faith as that of the creationist.

The foundation of good science is observation. What we unavoidably observe is more supportive of intelligent design than random, chance evolution. The question of the origin of life comes to the minds of all of us at one time or another. We owe it to our children to present every perspective and let them decide which one is the most plausible.

Preterist
To a degree, you are correct. The creationist does not flatly state that the removal of evolution is necessary, but merely advocates that it be relagated to a subserviant or minor philosphy, taught only to comfort the non believers.

Teaching of Marxism? It is not taught, it is taught about. Being taught about and taught are two vastly different things.

As for your statement regarding intelligent design being more observable than evolution, that is part of the problem. You are going into it with a preconceived prejudice. Starting with that attitude limits how open your mind is to new ideas and limits what you support your children learning/deciding.
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Old 02-09-2009, 10:23 AM
 
2,255 posts, read 4,795,438 times
Reputation: 771
Quote:
Originally Posted by Predos View Post
To a degree, you are correct. The creationist does not flatly state that the removal of evolution is necessary, but merely advocates that it be relagated to a subserviant or minor philosphy, taught only to comfort the non believers
Personally why do either one have to be shoved in the classrooms, just teach basic science, you can touch on important areas without using either Creationists or Evolutionist religious lingo. But in the end, what do I know, I don't vote so what does it all matter anyway, and when it all comes down to it, it's simply none of my business.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Predos
As for your statement regarding intelligent design being more observable than evolution, that is part of the problem. You are going into it with a preconceived prejudice. Starting with that attitude limits how open your mind is to new ideas and limits what you support your children learning/deciding.
Almost every one of mankind's inventions such as sonar, radar, flight, jet propulsion, and on and on and on and on come from discoveries and observations of amazing things in the natural world which they tell us are nothing more than blind chance, yet when these same so-called brilliant scientific individuals come up with new products, they arrogantly shout out from the roof tops, "Look what I/We made, invented, created, designed."

What a piece of work this world is.
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Old 02-10-2009, 01:35 AM
 
7,654 posts, read 9,673,656 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moonsun View Post
There are four heavenly books which Allaah sent down. They are the Tawraat (Torah), Injeel (Gospel), Zaboor (Psalms)and the Qur’aan
It is obligatory to believe in all the Books which....Islam Question and Answer - Belief in the Books and Messengers
The Bible speakes of the future in detail, and since God alone knows the future, why do we not see this in the Quraan?
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Old 02-10-2009, 03:19 AM
 
995 posts, read 1,174,855 times
Reputation: 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by Campbell34 View Post
The Bible speakes of the future in detail, and since God alone knows the future, why do we not see this in the Quraan?
The Bible has been proven to be full of errors and contradictions. If it can't even guard itself against its defilement how can it even predict the future? Its all a matter of the individual's interpretation - with that once can make almost any events to suit one's perception.

I can't speak much of the Quran as I'm just a layman. Howeve 1 prediction that I do remember in the Quran was the prediction that the Byzantines would triumph over the Persians. Now this surah was revealed to the Prophet at a time when the Persians were at their apex and had just defeated the Byzantines. No one at that time of the revealation would ever believe that the eventual triumph of the Byzantines would come. But it did just as prophecied in the Quran
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