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Old 02-11-2009, 12:22 AM
 
37,522 posts, read 25,250,403 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MontanaGuy View Post
I realize that light continues on it's path and will do so indefinitely but the same thing can't be said for sounds waves. Even something as loud as a shotgun blast will quickly dissipate and disappear completely.
::sigh:: Materialists ca be so tedious. OF course we know what the fate of sound waves are . . . and light waves as well. They are part of the univrse we can measure (baryonic) That has NOTHING to do with the analogy (which are never supposed to be identical in substance only in PRINCIPLE.
Quote:
As far as thoughts are concerned I don't believe that they have the ability to travel anywhere at all because they're occurring inside of our brain and not being transmitted in all directions like light or sounds waves. I mentioned earlier that it's possible to measure brain waves and to determine what part of the brain is active at any point in time but that measurement is not being taken outside of the human body and cannot be compared to a flashlight for example that shoots a beam of light that can be detected and measured. There is no means known to man that can detect a thought that is somehow being transmitted outside of our bodies.
::sigh:: What are brain waves? They aren't YOU. They are part of the processes that produce YOU. YOU are composed of a form of energy not measurable (non-baryonic) that exists one level removed from the brain activity producing it (like flames or a melody or . . . use you own analogy). Please try harder to grasp this composite abstraction that isn't an abstraction that has to be energic because it interacts with reality independently as a composite (YOU).
Quote:
You seem to be suggesting that the inhabitants of earth are shooting off thoughts to outer space in a manner similar to a bright light but as you said, I think that they're gone once we think them.
To where, Montana? Try harder, please.
Quote:
I can tell you're a very intelligent and insightful person and I have to say that your posts are thought provoking but I think we view the nature of the universe and consciousness very differently.
Indubitably . . . but I have hope for you.
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Old 02-11-2009, 12:58 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sanspeur View Post
Light can travel great distances because light can exhibit properties of both waves and particles (photons). This property is referred to as wave–particle duality. You do know that the speed of light is what is used to measure distant stars and galaxies I hope.

Sound cannot, as sound waves are a vibration traveling through air or an object, including "condensed" things like solids and liquids. It cannot travel in space because there is nothing to vibrate.
::sigh:: I do know many things, sanspeur . . . I suspect far more than you have demonstrated in any of your posts . . . which seem to be comprised mainly of disparaging opinions unsupported by rationale or supporting knowledge. Like most materialists. . . your consciousness seems hamstrung and circumscribed by the physical world. You seem unconcerned that the consciousness you are using to criticize and carp is not remotely physical . . . ironic, don't you think?

EVERYTHING is energy in some wave form. The more aggregated the wave form . . . the more "substance" we detect. But there are no "particles" or anything else that isn't a measured (detected) "vibratory event." Physicists for purposes of learning about and predicting events (and performing "miracles" of scientific advancement) have identified various levels of aggregation and supplied them with different names based on the amount of quanta (particles) or mass (atoms, molecules) the aggregated waves represent.

Since the universe is vibratory energy, it is useful if you understand wave theory and concepts like resonance. My friend Troop ironically recently posted a useful introduction to the concept in this thread. It might help some of you to watch it and then try to come to grips with my notions. In any case . . . the concept of infinity is one of the ways our mathematics tells us we have encountered the divine (incomprehensible).

It is common knowledge that perfect resonance produces an amplitude that is mathematically infinite. That means that any driven energy wave form (like our brain wave consciousness) that achieved perfect resonance with the universe's consciousness . . . would achieve infinity and identity with God. Of course, anything less than perfection (like every human consciousness . . . except as I believe . . . Jesus) produces various degrees of resonance (from none) to that which approaches the infinite asymptotically.

Just because we cannot yet measure non-baryonic energy (dark matter, dark energy and consciousness) does NOT mean that it doesn't exist. In fact science currently attributes more than 95% of the universe to this non-baryonic form of energy. It is intriguing to me that dark matter, specifically exists as the basis for galaxies (lakes of fire . . . suns).
Quote:
I believe your entire universal consciousness hypothesis does not exist.
We are all free to believe or not believe whatever we wish. What is will not be changed by it . . . we will either be right or wrong.
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Old 02-11-2009, 02:13 AM
 
2,255 posts, read 4,797,661 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sanspeur View Post
Light can travel great distances because light can exhibit properties of both waves and particles (photons). This property is referred to as wave–particle duality. You do know that the speed of light is what is used to measure distant stars and galaxies I hope.

Sound cannot, as sound waves are a vibration traveling through air or an object, including "condensed" things like solids and liquids. It cannot travel in space because there is nothing to vibrate.
I learned about that in science class. Okay I admit it, I did'nt really. It was the 1980 movie trailer to "Alien" = "In space, no one can here you scream"

Quote:
Originally Posted by sanspeur
I believe your entire universal consciousness hypothesis does not exist.
Well at least we agree on something. There is no Immortality of the Soul.

Maybe the more religion (Babylonish Harlot who gets stripped and naked by the secular elements and finally eaten and devoured) becomes exposed these days, it should be a more accurate description of "immorality of the soul".
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Old 02-11-2009, 04:28 AM
 
Location: South Africa
5,563 posts, read 6,150,378 times
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Originally Posted by Nikk View Post
One day is one revolution of the earth on it's axis in relationship to the sun.
That's not what was said, the moon does not orbit the earth once a day.
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Old 02-11-2009, 05:36 AM
 
2,633 posts, read 4,451,523 times
Reputation: 586
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
::sigh:: I do know many things, sanspeur . . . I suspect far more than you have demonstrated in any of your posts . . . which seem to be comprised mainly of disparaging opinions unsupported by rationale or supporting knowledge. Like most materialists. . . your consciousness seems hamstrung and circumscribed by the physical world. You seem unconcerned that the consciousness you are using to criticize and carp is not remotely physical . . . ironic, don't you think?

EVERYTHING is energy in some wave form. The more aggregated the wave form . . . the more "substance" we detect. But there are no "particles" or anything else that isn't a measured (detected) "vibratory event." Physicists for purposes of learning about and predicting events (and performing "miracles" of scientific advancement) have identified various levels of aggregation and supplied them with different names based on the amount of quanta (particles) or mass (atoms, molecules) the aggregated waves represent.

Since the universe is vibratory energy, it is useful if you understand wave theory and concepts like resonance. My friend Troop ironically recently posted a useful introduction to the concept in this thread. It might help some of you to watch it and then try to come to grips with my notions. In any case . . . the concept of infinity is one of the ways our mathematics tells us we have encountered the divine (incomprehensible).

It is common knowledge that perfect resonance produces an amplitude that is mathematically infinite. That means that any driven energy wave form (like our brain wave consciousness) that achieved perfect resonance with the universe's consciousness . . . would achieve infinity and identity with God. Of course, anything less than perfection (like every human consciousness . . . except as I believe . . . Jesus) produces various degrees of resonance (from none) to that which approaches the infinite asymptotically.

Just because we cannot yet measure non-baryonic energy (dark matter, dark energy and consciousness) does NOT mean that it doesn't exist. In fact science currently attributes more than 95% of the universe to this non-baryonic form of energy. It is intriguing to me that dark matter, specifically exists as the basis for galaxies (lakes of fire . . . suns). We are all free to believe or not believe whatever we wish. What is will not be changed by it . . . we will either be right or wrong.
At least we can infer the existance of things like dark matter. Scientists just used the gravitational equations to create a model of the galaxy and found out that galaxies do not have enough gravity to keep their shape past one rotation. There must be some extra mass that's unnacounted for to keep the galaxies as they are now.
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Old 02-11-2009, 01:52 PM
 
4,047 posts, read 4,376,331 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
I have repeatedly said there is no basis for you to accept the reality of what I know to be reality without acquiring the same capabilities and subjecting your experiences in these altered brain states to your own conscious control to determine which are fixed and which are malleable (products of your mind).
You sure have said that repeatedly. But you should know that something (possibly your own ego) is making you feel scientifically justified in believing that the altered brain states that you cannot control surely must be from some external source, it must be God! How are you so sure that you are capable of controlling everything? You have no evidence that "fixed brain states" are from an external source at all, other than your own superiority complex telling you that your meditation abilities are perfect. You immediately explain fixed brain states with "it must be something external, beyond observation" rather than simply "there must be altered brain states that I cannot control." You forgot that you are adding speculation into it by explaining the unexplainable (unobservable). Something has to be observed in order to explain the characteristics of it (and to know it even exists), but you have skipped that step somehow. You speculate that fixed brain states are characteristics of external sources of consciousness energy that you cannot observe. Speculation is fine, but using it as fact is completely unscientific.

Last edited by LogicIsYourFriend; 02-11-2009 at 02:01 PM..
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Old 02-11-2009, 02:58 PM
 
37,522 posts, read 25,250,403 times
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Originally Posted by LogicIsYourFriend View Post
You sure have said that repeatedly. But you should know that something (possibly your own ego) is making you feel scientifically justified in believing that the altered brain states that you cannot control surely must be from some external source, it must be God! How are you so sure that you are capable of controlling everything? You have no evidence that "fixed brain states" are from an external source at all, other than your own superiority complex telling you that your meditation abilities are perfect.
You and Troop have this annoying tendency to project ego-driven motivations (superiority complex,etc.) to people You might want to look into that more deeply to find out why it is YOUR default attribution. We tend to attribute most strongly to others those things we are most certain characterize us. Just saying.
Quote:
You immediately explain fixed brain states with "it must be something external, beyond observation" rather than simply "there must be altered brain states that I cannot control." You forgot that you are adding speculation into it by explaining the unexplainable (unobservable). Something has to be observed in order to explain the characteristics of it (and to know it even exists), but you have skipped that step somehow. You speculate that fixed brain states are characteristics of external sources of consciousness energy that you cannot observe. Speculation is fine, but using it as fact is completely unscientific.
I have said that there is no basis for you to accept what I have said because it requires experiencing . . . a "knowing" state (right brain) that you are unfamiliar with except for those things that have outside confirmations (left brain). Also . . . your assertion that there is no observational reason to believe it exists is inaccurate. ALL of our mathematics would be worthless if it doesn't (universal field). The attribute of consciousness that I attribute to what absolutely MUST exist is what you are incapable of crediting for the reasons previously cited and I agree you cannot without verifying it for yourself. We convince ourselves of anything by repeated observation backed by extensive rationale that the phenomenon exists (theory). Ironically . . . even if your version of the fixed consciousness were true and it was my own permanent loving and accepting consciousness at a level beyond my control . . . nothing changes. I am still part of your Nature God . . . so it is still an attribute of same. As I said, Logic. . . there is no reason for you to credit my views . . . but there is no basis for you to discredit them either . . . absent performing the same experiential tests yourself . . . (and btw I am certain I am not the only one who has experienced this state.)
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Old 02-11-2009, 07:45 PM
 
4,047 posts, read 4,376,331 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
You and Troop have this annoying tendency to project ego-driven motivations (superiority complex,etc.) to people You might want to look into that more deeply to find out why it is YOUR default attribution. We tend to attribute most strongly to others those things we are most certain characterize us. Just saying. I have said that there is no basis for you to accept what I have said because it requires experiencing . . . a "knowing" state (right brain) that you are unfamiliar with except for those things that have outside confirmations (left brain). Also . . . your assertion that there is no observational reason to believe it exists is inaccurate. ALL of our mathematics would be worthless if it doesn't (universal field). The attribute of consciousness that I attribute to what absolutely MUST exist is what you are incapable of crediting for the reasons previously cited and I agree you cannot without verifying it for yourself. We convince ourselves of anything by repeated observation backed by extensive rationale that the phenomenon exists (theory). Ironically . . . even if your version of the fixed consciousness were true and it was my own permanent loving and accepting consciousness at a level beyond my control . . . nothing changes. I am still part of your Nature God . . . so it is still an attribute of same. As I said, Logic. . . there is no reason for you to credit my views . . . but there is no basis for you to discredit them either . . . absent performing the same experiential tests yourself . . . (and btw I am certain I am not the only one who has experienced this state.)
You say this thing must exist, but you cannot test it. I respect your right to believe it; what bothers me is that you act as if your conclusions were based on scientific testing. Well as mentioned before, all you can test is whether a brain state is fixed or malleable. You cannot test why it has this characteristic. It's your own conjecture that there is an external source causing the fixed states. Even if you are right about there being a universal consciousness, you have no way to determine beyond speculation what it would be doing to your brain and, if it affects you, what its characteristics are. This is perfectly fine; all I have been saying is that you claim your conclusion is scientific, and it's not. It's an argument from incredulity like any intelligent design theorist is fond of. That's all.
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Old 02-11-2009, 10:24 PM
 
37,522 posts, read 25,250,403 times
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Originally Posted by LogicIsYourFriend View Post
You say this thing must exist, but you cannot test it.
The entire mathematical foundation of the science you are so fond of requires that the field exists . . . I don't. I only assert that I know it is consciousness based on my personal experiences. Its fixed nature and the fact that other adepts experience it the same way . . . while anecdotal . . . is NOT insignificant.
Quote:
I respect your right to believe it; what bothers me is that you act as if your conclusions were based on scientific testing. Well as mentioned before, all you can test is whether a brain state is fixed or malleable. You cannot test why it has this characteristic. It's your own conjecture that there is an external source causing the fixed states.
Plus the experiences of other adepts completely unconnected to me over decades and in different cultures and circumstances.
Quote:
Even if you are right about there being a universal consciousness, you have no way to determine beyond speculation what it would be doing to your brain and, if it affects you, what its characteristics are.
About this you are incorrect. Its characteristics are unmistakable.
Quote:
This is perfectly fine; all I have been saying is that you claim your conclusion is scientific, and it's not. It's an argument from incredulity like any intelligent design theorist is fond of. That's all.
Lumping all speculation that has an element of incredulity involved without considering the DEGREE of consistent and confirming indications and the DEGREE of incredulity involved (as if they are ALL the same if they have ANY incredulity in them) is a straw man tactic unworthy of anyone whose name begins with Logic.

Last edited by MysticPhD; 02-11-2009 at 10:40 PM..
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Old 02-11-2009, 10:34 PM
 
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What's so great about logic? You capitalize it? That's Silly. Logic is based in language and there is a language beyond language.

There is also a faith beyond faith that puts it's faith in no faith.

Transcend transcendence to the transcendence transcending transcendence transcends. . .
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