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Old 10-28-2012, 12:14 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by southern no more View Post
I am curious about something, if the Pilgrims came to America to be free to practice the religion that they wanted and that was what "this country has been founded on". Than why do I hear so often that our fore fathers were Christians and that is why we should bow to Christianity in America. And why were so many innocent people were killed in Salem when they were or accused of being witches. It just seems like some serious confusion. Any takes on this?
The hypocrisy born in the ignorance of a fairy tale pretty much sums it up.

Remember the christian god is always the god that hates the same people the christian does. Very convenient and self-serving.
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Old 10-28-2012, 07:07 PM
 
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Default Pilgrims

[FONT=&quot]There is a great deal of misunderstanding here. The Pilgrims were separatists and were very friendly toward the natives and that sentiment was returned by the Natives. I recommend, rather than heeding the stereotypical self-appointed spokespersons for the Native Americans, that actual conversation be held with individuals who see these historical events in unique and individual ways. That would be truly non-racist. The desire of the Pilgrims was to separate from people with whom they did not agree, not impose themselves upon them. From what I have read, no one ever successfully accused any of their number of witchcraft and in the case of the few instances where the accusation was made, the accusers were fined for false accusation. I am not sure, but I think that there is little to no incident of witch burning in America. People convicted of witchcraft were hung, and the incident of that was quite low. The Puritans were more strenuous in their imposition of religious ideas and are a significantly different group from the myriad others who have made up the founding of this country. They are non-the-less, very valuable in their contributions to a true break with oppressive European governments and I suggest, in spite of any shortcomings, to be appreciated. There are two ideas that I think are often overlooked in the concern about witchcraft. Were there not insane people at that time who would be the historic equivalent of the modern day serial murderer about which, the terminology may be different, but the legitimate concern would be justified? Second, their is a prevailing religious ideology that sets the ground for any common human endeavor. One must seek out what that is, and perhaps engage in change within it, but is sadly mistaken in the BELIEF that common human endeavors exist without one. The only religious persecution and tyranny that I observe in this country, comes from the backward notion that government should mandate and manipulate our lives. Please read original historical documents about these and other historical events. They generally give a much more clear picture. It is unfortunate that historians seem to be caught up in sensationalism and agendas. [/FONT]
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Old 05-05-2017, 09:37 PM
 
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Red face Puritans different from Pilgrims

The Pilgrims landed at Plymouth Rock. Remember the Mayflower Compact written on their ship. They wanted to get away from the Church of England, headed by the King of England. We call this an Established church, or Conforming. If you do not conform or attend the established church, you are a dissenter. You were in trouble in the 1600s England. Bunyan who wrote Pilgrim's Progress was jailed in England from 1660-72. I think the Pilgrims of Plymouth Rock hoped to be totally inconspicuous and avoid trouble. So, we call them SEPARATISTS. I do know of any case of them trying, hanging or burning witches.
To the contrary, the founders of the Massachusetts Bay Colony, based at Boston, were PURITANS. They brought in a lot more people to Boston than the population of Plymouth and eventually eclipsed the smaller older colony. While saying they did not reject the King or the Church of England, they said they wanted to "purify" it. They disliked all that ritual and fancy vestments left over from the Roman Church. They were strict and debated doctrine as to faith versus works or good deeds. Their fights meant that people would split and produced new colonies (e.g., Roger Williams started Rhode Island) They did not like Baptists and totally banned Quakers. Four Quakers including one woman were hanged in 1659-61 at Boston. Technically, they viewed the Quakers as heretics not witches. Later, the witch frenzy occurred at Salem, a smaller Puritan town north of Boston. There were some good things about the Puritans. They had no overall head of their religion, each congregation was independent and basically chose their preacher or minister. They founded Harvard, although 7 of the first 10 grads moved to England for better jobs. Later on, Americans looked back on the Puritans (as well as the Pilgrims) as very spiritual people. The "city on a hill" sermon meant that they were building a model of a spiritual community, a model for the world to see. This is the sense that President Reagan quoted. Later utopians seem inspired by the good side of New England spiritualism. On the other hand, their preachers tried to scare people with the fire and brimstone of Hell. Later, Hawthorne exposed their hypocrisy in The Scarlet Letter.
Written from memory.
Read: Morgan, The Puritan Dilemma.
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Old 05-06-2017, 12:14 AM
 
Location: The backwoods of Pennsylvania ... unfortunately.
5,564 posts, read 3,136,060 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by southern no more View Post
I am curious about something, if the Pilgrims came to America to be free to practice the religion that they wanted and that was what "this country has been founded on". Than why do I hear so often that our fore fathers were Christians and that is why we should bow to Christianity in America. And why were so many innocent people were killed in Salem when they were or accused of being witches. It just seems like some serious confusion. Any takes on this?
The Puritans were essentially theocratic fascists -- at least that's what we would call them in today's lingo.

Religion ruled everything with an iron hand. In places where Puritanism was dominant, laws went into effect that made laughing on Sunday a criminal offense (you'd spend a few days in the stocks). There was an infamous case when a sea captain came home from a long voyage, kissed his wife, and was instantly arrested for "lewd public behavior." Husbands were permitted to literally muzzle their wives if the husband decided she was nagging too much -- yeah I mean actually putting a dog muzzle on her. Puritans wanted to ban just about everything that was considered fun, from theaters to playing cards. Some towns had laws requiring mandatory church attendance.

In fact, George Washington, while president, was actually detained by the authorities of some Puritan town for daring to work on the Sabbath.

While we're often taught that the Puritans were this innocent group of people who left England so they could freely practice their religion -- what is never mentioned is why no one in England wanted to deal with them; they wanted everyone to obey their rules like the little fascists they were. They really weren't all that innocent, and the brand of religion they wanted to freely practice was abhorrent.

Yes, they did treat the Native Americans well, and that, at least, is a plus in their corner, but ... damn.

Witch trials were a minor blip in American history and I think far too much has been made of it. Only a handful of people were hung for this "crime" most of it caused by simple hysteria. It only occurred in Salem and wasn't widespread.
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Old 05-06-2017, 01:00 AM
 
Location: Valencia, Spain
13,881 posts, read 9,659,731 times
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Originally Posted by southern no more View Post
Yeah, at least we arent being burned at the stake huh?!
We would be if bloody Christians could have their way.
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Old 05-06-2017, 03:53 AM
 
Location: US
26,274 posts, read 13,935,357 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by southern no more View Post
I am curious about something, if the Pilgrims came to America to be free to practice the religion that they wanted and that was what "this country has been founded on". Than why do I hear so often that our fore fathers were Christians and that is why we should bow to Christianity in America. And why were so many innocent people were killed in Salem when they were or accused of being witches. It just seems like some serious confusion. Any takes on this?
Our forefathers were Deists...
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Old 05-06-2017, 04:04 AM
 
Location: US
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Originally Posted by FredNotBob View Post
As for the first question -- the original intent of forming the United States was to protect religious liberty, for all religions -- mainland Europe had become a 'religious dictatorship', in that the Church was the major form of leadership at the time, and the original settlers broke away to form a country where a religious body wouldn't have such a high position in society.

We all know how well that turned out...
I do not think that that is accurate regarding WHY the United States was formed...
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Old 05-06-2017, 07:05 AM
 
Location: Boston
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The declaration of Independence invoked God to trump the Monarchy.
Originally written by John Locke, the authors took his idea and ran with it.
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Old 05-06-2017, 09:11 AM
 
Location: Nanaimo, Canada
1,808 posts, read 1,520,708 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shirina View Post
Witch trials were a minor blip in American history and I think far too much has been made of it. Only a handful of people were hung for this "crime" most of it caused by simple hysteria. It only occurred in Salem and wasn't widespread.
In the US, the trials occurred purely in Salem. Such trials in Europe occurred Europe in the Early Modern period, from approximately 1428 to 1750.
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Old 05-06-2017, 09:19 AM
 
Location: Valencia, Spain
13,881 posts, read 9,659,731 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FredNotBob View Post
In the US, the trials occurred purely in Salem. Such trials in Europe occurred Europe in the Early Modern period, from approximately 1428 to 1750.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nf_Y4MbUCLY
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