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Old 02-18-2009, 12:14 AM
 
37,508 posts, read 25,238,629 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Huckleberry3911948 View Post
neither. he was martyred on the cross to fulfill scripture he carefully and methodically documented this objective step by step in the gospels. the result was an enormous religious movement that affected the world. what was merely a jewish sect became a world religion.
Insightful, Huckleberry.A necessary step in God's plan to save the human race from its sins . . . but not a required payment . . . a redeemed promise.
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Old 02-18-2009, 12:30 AM
 
995 posts, read 1,175,130 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Huckleberry3911948 View Post
neither. he was martyred on the cross to fulfill scripture he carefully and methodically documented this objective step by step in the gospels. the result was an enormous religious movement that affected the world. what was merely a jewish sect became a world religion. as to true intention of this act we can only look to his own words for explanation.
"Methodically documented in the gospels'? Yet...take a gender below and explain why the gospels themselves are in disagreement :

There is disagreement with regard to what the disciples did after Jesus' arrest. According to Matthew, the disciples all fled, with only Peter watching Jesus from afar. Mark describes the odd detail of how only "a young man, wearing nothing but a linen garment" watched Jesus, and how he was caught but freed himself from the garment and escaped. Like Matthew, Luke writes that only Peter watched Jesus. John, on the other hand, writes that Simon Peter and another disciple were following Jesus.

The answers to the question of who judged Jesus are also different. The synoptic gospels describe how he was tried by the Jewish Supreme Court (the Sanhedrin). According to John, Jesus was tried not by the Sanhedrin, but by Caiaphas, the high priest that time, and his father-in-law Annas

Some might argue its just minor details but if its really divinely inspired how can there be such contradictions?
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Old 02-18-2009, 08:23 AM
 
1,736 posts, read 1,836,823 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John1701 View Post
Quote:
GIam wrote (I numbered the points):
1) Suffering comes from sin.”
2) “If Jesus was doing anything with his death, it would then have been atonement for his sins.”
3) “Any person that thinks it is ok to use a scapegoat Jesus to shoulder his responsibilities and blame for sin is immoral.”

GIam, you have a serious misunderstanding of these issues.

First, suffering does not necessarily come as a result of a person’s own sin. If you were simply walking down a street, and a dog came running at you and bit you badly, you would suffer. But it wouldn’t be your fault or a result of your sin. Right? Innocent people suffer all the time, through no fault of their own.
You are right of course. I was speaking to the one issue of the suffering of Jesus as it pertains to sin.

Quote:
Second, since Jesus had no sin, he needed no atonement for his sins.



Was it not a sin of high order forJesus/God to use genocide against man with Noah's flood. I think so.

2 Corinthians 5:21
“God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.”

1 Peter 2:22
"He committed no sin, and no deceit was found in his mouth."

1 Peter 3:18
“Christ suffered for our sins once for all time. He never sinned, but he died for sinners to bring you safely home to God. He suffered physical death, but he was raised to life in the Spirit.”

Third, since all of us mortals are sinners, and the penalty for sin is death, we ALL desperately need Jesus to be our scapegoat and atone for our sins. It is something we cannot do for ourselves, and so it is not a matter of failing to shoulder our responsibilities, and it is not immoral.
To allow someone else to shoulder our responsibilities is immoral.

Do you pay your own taxes or do you look for someone else to do it for you?
Would you let another human, suffer a hardship that you cause in this world?
If yes then you are immoral.

Are you here to add weight to the cross or help carry it?

Show any other scenario that shows where it is good to use a scapegoat. You cannot. Right?

Regards
DL
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Old 02-18-2009, 08:24 AM
 
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Originally Posted by braderjoe View Post
Personal responsibility then doesn't comes into play? I'd rather take Islam's position where you don't make another person pay for your sins. You reap what you sow. Yes we're all mortals and sin every other time. That is why we need to repent and ask Him for forgiveness. There are lots of ways a person can be accounted for. For example, a person might not be the dutiful worshiper but in his favour, he's a person who always goes out of his way to help others. When its time to judge, all these actions are taken into consideration.
That is the problem : Jesus died for our sins so we don't have to. As long as we believe in Jesus, we can do what we like. This kind of thinking will only lead to moral decay
Well said.

Regards
DL
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Old 02-18-2009, 08:29 AM
 
1,736 posts, read 1,836,823 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Huckleberry3911948 View Post
neither. he was martyred on the cross to fulfill scripture he carefully and methodically documented this objective step by step in the gospels. the result was an enormous religious movement that affected the world. what was merely a jewish sect became a world religion. as to true intention of this act we can only look to his own words for explanation.
Building a religion on an immoral act is like saying the end justifies the means.

I can then kill my son as God did and build an empire on the proceeds. A **** poor philosophy even if it ends up being a good empire.

Regards
DL
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Old 02-18-2009, 08:31 AM
 
410 posts, read 416,432 times
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We love Jesus in islamic faith.
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Old 02-18-2009, 08:34 AM
 
4,669 posts, read 3,902,855 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by serena nisha sattar View Post
We love Jesus in islamic faith.

Yet you think he was either a liar or a lunatic, right? He claimed to be God. Do you believe that?
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Old 02-18-2009, 09:21 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by serena nisha sattar View Post
We love Jesus in islamic faith.
Why?
Some of his sayings are unworkable. IE. Turn the other cheek.

Regards
DL
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Old 02-18-2009, 12:05 PM
 
Location: Colorado Springs
69 posts, read 107,259 times
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Default How do Muslim's atone for their sins?

Quote:
Originally Posted by braderjoe View Post
Personal responsibility then doesn't comes into play? I'd rather take Islam's position where you don't make another person pay for your sins. You reap what you sow. Yes we're all mortals and sin every other time. That is why we need to repent and ask Him for forgiveness. There are lots of ways a person can be accounted for. For example, a person might not be the dutiful worshiper but in his favour, he's a person who always goes out of his way to help others. When its time to judge, all these actions are taken into consideration.
That is the problem : Jesus died for our sins so we don't have to. As long as we believe in Jesus, we can do what we like. This kind of thinking will only lead to moral decay
So, braderjoe, you’d rather take Islam’s position where you won’t allow another person to pay for your sins? Tell me, then, who will atone for your sins? How do Muslim’s atone for their sins?

You wrote: “As long as we believe in Jesus, we can do what we like.”

Wrong. The Apostle Paul already answered that:

“What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?”
Romans 6: 1-2
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Old 02-18-2009, 12:38 PM
 
Location: Colorado Springs
69 posts, read 107,259 times
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Default Does God have the right?

GIam wrote:
“Was it not a sin of high order forJesus/God to use genocide against man with Noah's flood. I think so.”

I think not. God created the world and all life on it, including people. We are His creation. He owns us. If we ignore Him or hate Him and always sin and do things which He hates, why should He let us live?

Does God not have the right to destroy that which He created?

What do you say?
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