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Old 02-18-2009, 01:52 PM
 
Location: Colorado Springs
69 posts, read 107,377 times
Reputation: 17

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Giam wrote:
“To allow someone else to shoulder our responsibilities is immoral.”

Interesting. I wonder, do you think helping others is immoral?

Is charity immoral?

If you find someone who is starving, and you give him food, is that immoral?
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Old 02-18-2009, 02:15 PM
 
1,736 posts, read 1,838,904 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John1701 View Post
GIam wrote:
“Was it not a sin of high order forJesus/God to use genocide against man with Noah's flood. I think so.”

I think not. God created the world and all life on it, including people. We are His creation. He owns us. If we ignore Him or hate Him and always sin and do things which He hates, why should He let us live?

Does God not have the right to destroy that which He created?

What do you say?
I helped create my children. Do I have the right to kill them.

Does God teach us to venerate life by showing us how to kill and use genocide.

If he hates sin then why give us natures that do so?
If He wants non sinning people then why not create some?
One out of a million just for a sample of His competence would be nice.

Regards
DL
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Old 02-18-2009, 02:21 PM
 
1,736 posts, read 1,838,904 times
Reputation: 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by John1701 View Post
Giam wrote:
“To allow someone else to shoulder our responsibilities is immoral.”

Interesting. I wonder, do you think helping others is immoral?

Is charity immoral?

If you find someone who is starving, and you give him food, is that immoral?
No to all.

The issue is it it immoral to foster our responsibility onto another? Yes, this is immoral.

Is it immoral to use a scapegoat? Yes.

Is it Moral to accept punishment for our own sins or crimes? Yes

Regards
DL
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Old 02-18-2009, 02:46 PM
 
Location: Colorado Springs
69 posts, read 107,377 times
Reputation: 17
Default GIam - clarification

Giam wrote:
“To allow someone else to shoulder our responsibilities is immoral.”

Yet, when I asked you if charity, or helping those in need was immoral, you said no. Notice the contradiction? Sometimes, people are in need because they are not shouldering their responsibilities. If we help them, aren’t we shouldering their responsibilities?

Isn’t that immoral?

In India, people think it is immoral to help others because that interferes with the working out of karma. They believe poor people are poor because they earned that in a past life. Do you agree?
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Old 02-18-2009, 04:11 PM
 
Location: Colorado Springs
69 posts, read 107,377 times
Reputation: 17
Default The accuser of God?

GIam wrote:
“I helped create my children. Do I have the right to kill them.”
“Does God teach us to venerate life by showing us how to kill and use genocide.”
”If he hates sin then why give us natures that do so?”
”If He wants non sinning people then why not create some?”
”One out of a million just for a sample of His competence would be nice.”

Wow, GIam. In your mind it’s ok for God to create, but not ok to destroy His creation? Do you really think that’s up to you? If God wants to destroy His creation, isn’t that up to Him? Who are you to judge God?

The reason you do not have the right to kill your children is because you did not create them. You were merely a vessel for the outworking of a natural process, which God set in motion long ago. He is the creator – not you. He has not given mankind permission to murder – instead He has told us to not murder. It’s His world, not yours. If you wish to challenge Him on how He runs the universe, good luck with that. I know of a guy who tried that. Do you know him?

No, God didn’t force sin upon mankind. He gave us free will, and we chose to use it to sin. To save us from the consequences of that sin, He sent us Jesus Christ. Again, that was Gods’ choice – not yours. It’s up to Him how to deal with our sin – it isn’t up to you. He makes the rules – not you.

As to your last two remarks:
”If He wants non sinning people then why not create some?”
”One out of a million just for a sample of His competence would be nice.”

Again, wow. Your question here seems to have a hint of arrogance. God created mankind with free will because He didn’t want robots who were forced to obey Him. Was He wrong to do that? And you’re calling God incompetent because He didn’t? Are you the great accuser of God?
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Old 02-18-2009, 04:35 PM
 
Location: Midwest
29,180 posts, read 18,445,644 times
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If Jesus was a sacrifice for us wouldn't he have to remain dead to be a true sacrifice? No afterlife no eternal life etc... He died and remaind dead so that we could live forever.
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Old 02-18-2009, 05:04 PM
 
Location: Colorado Springs
69 posts, read 107,377 times
Reputation: 17
Default Jesus' death was enough

Quote:
Originally Posted by jojajn View Post
If Jesus was a sacrifice for us wouldn't he have to remain dead to be a true sacrifice? No afterlife no eternal life etc... He died and remaind dead so that we could live forever.
No, jojajn, he would not have to remain dead.

Jesus' willingness to die a horrible death on the cross - to save us from ourselves - was all God required. The atonement came with the act itself, and there is no need for Jesus to remain dead. His resurrection is a beautiful reminder of what awaits those who put their trust in him.

Because he lives, so can we! Eternal life with God is ours for the asking!

Last edited by John1701; 02-18-2009 at 05:16 PM..
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Old 02-18-2009, 07:17 PM
 
995 posts, read 1,176,340 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greatest I am View Post
Why?
Some of his sayings are unworkable. IE. Turn the other cheek.DL
Turn the other cheek??
KJV
49 I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled? 50 But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished! 51 Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division: 52 For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three. 53 The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. (Luke 12:49-53)

NASB
Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and a man’s enemies will be the members of his household. He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. He who has found his life will lose it, and he who has lost his life for My sake will find it." (Matthew 10:34-39 NASB)
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Old 02-18-2009, 07:35 PM
 
995 posts, read 1,176,340 times
Reputation: 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by kdbrich View Post
Yet you think he was either a liar or a lunatic, right? He claimed to be God. Do you believe that?
Muslims take the middle path between the jews and the christians. The jews tried to kill Jesus while the christians try to deify him. Muslims view Jesus as just another line of human prophets/messengers sent by God. Jesus was sent to the jews of that era. Muslims revere Jesus as one of the greatest messengers of God alongside Abraham, Moses & Muhammad. The sad thing is - there was a survey done and quite a number of christians including priests etc no longer believe in his virgin birth. Muslims do.
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Old 02-18-2009, 09:35 PM
 
995 posts, read 1,176,340 times
Reputation: 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by John1701 View Post
So, braderjoe, you’d rather take Islam’s position where you won’t allow another person to pay for your sins? Tell me, then, who will atone for your sins? How do Muslim’s atone for their sins?


No one will atone for my sins except me. In Islam each person is judged on his own merits. Isn't that the fairest way? God is fair and just. Even an atom of good done by a person will be acknowledged by God as will an atom of evil. The witnesses in this trial will be the person's own body parts - the eyes,ears, legs, hands etc. After judgement is done, the person will then be shown his place - be it heaven or hell. If you're a believer who sinned and did not repent truly, you will be placed in hell along with the non-believers. After you have served your time in hell ( the length depend on your 'sins' - normally it will be thousands of years!) you will then be released and send to heaven to live out your life for eternity. Whether a person gets a stay of execution or gets a free 'get out of hell' card, it all depends on the Creator. He is the final judge. There is no special savior, no priests, no holy men to intecede for you. The Creator doesn't need to sacrifice his son or anybody for man's salvation. Your own good deeds are what will save you. Now isn't that fair?


Quote:
Originally Posted by John1701 View Post
You wrote: “As long as we believe in Jesus, we can do what we like.”
Quote:
Originally Posted by John1701 View Post

Wrong. The Apostle Paul already answered that:

“What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?”
Romans 6: 1-2
So are you saying then that even if a person who believes in Jesus as God or son of God still keep sinning - he can still end up in hell? If that's what you meant then I support that statment.
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