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Old 02-19-2009, 06:46 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John1701 View Post
Quote:
Giam wrote:
“To allow someone else to shoulder our responsibilities is immoral.”

Yet, when I asked you if charity, or helping those in need was immoral, you said no. Notice the contradiction? Sometimes, people are in need because they are not shouldering their responsibilities. If we help them, aren’t we shouldering their responsibilities?

Isn’t that immoral?


Helping to maintain someone's life is moral and good.
To help someone sin or bear the guilt of sin by being their scapegoat is immoral not good.

Johnny was in class and inadvertently let loose a big fart.
The angry teacher turned and demanded that the culprit rise.
Being shy and ashamed Johnny did not.
After repeated demands with no results the teacher said that the whole class would be punished.
Bill stood up to shoulder the blame because he did not want the whole class to suffer.
What would you do if you were Johnny?
What is the right thing to do?

India, people think it is immoral to help others because that interferes with the working out of karma. They believe poor people are poor because they earned that in a past life. Do you agree?
No. I do not believe in reincarnation. I do believe that in India, people help each other.

Regards
DL
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Old 02-19-2009, 07:11 AM
 
1,736 posts, read 1,845,004 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John1701 View Post
Quote:
GIam wrote:
“I helped create my children. Do I have the right to kill them.”
“Does God teach us to venerate life by showing us how to kill and use genocide.”
”If he hates sin then why give us natures that do so?”
”If He wants non sinning people then why not create some?”
”One out of a million just for a sample of His competence would be nice.”

Wow, GIam. In your mind it’s ok for God to create, but not ok to destroy His creation? Do you really think that’s up to you? If God wants to destroy His creation, isn’t that up to Him? Who are you to judge God?
If God wants to keep responsibility for our lives then He should not give us freedom.
If you give your children freedom and they go get their own place to live. Do you have the right to go to it and punish them for not making their bed?

We should and must judge all Gods to know which one is the best and which one to follow. If not then you would be ignorant of your God's philosophy and be following without knowing why.


Quote:
The reason you do not have the right to kill your children is because you did not create them. You were merely a vessel for the outworking of a natural process, which God set in motion long ago. He is the creator – not you. He has not given mankind permission to murder – instead He has told us to not murder. It’s His world, not yours. If you wish to challenge Him on how He runs the universe, good luck with that. I know of a guy who tried that. Do you know him?


For any lawmaker to break His own laws is wrond.
If he says do as I say and not as I do then he is saying that there is something wrong with his law and even he cannot live with it.

Quote:
No, God didn’t force sin upon mankind. He gave us free will, and we chose to use it to sin. To save us from the consequences of that sin, He sent us Jesus Christ. Again, that was Gods’ choice – not yours. It’s up to Him how to deal with our sin – it isn’t up to you. He makes the rules – not you.
I make my rules that is why I can sin. So do you. That is free will. Do you have it?

As to your last two remarks:
”If He wants non sinning people then why not create some?”
”One out of a million just for a sample of His competence would be nice.”

Again, wow. Your question here seems to have a hint of arrogance. God created mankind with free will because He didn’t want robots who were forced to obey Him. Was He wrong to do that? And you’re calling God incompetent because He didn’t? Are you the great accuser of God?
You have God saying be a robot or burn. The only freedom you see is to follow or burn. LOL

Regards
DL
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Old 02-19-2009, 07:13 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jojajn View Post
If Jesus was a sacrifice for us wouldn't he have to remain dead to be a true sacrifice? No afterlife no eternal life etc... He died and remaind dead so that we could live forever.
Gods cannot die.

Gods do not make sacrifices to themselves.

Regards
DL
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Old 02-19-2009, 07:15 AM
 
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John

"And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me."

You would have him carry you and your cross.

Regards
DL
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Old 02-19-2009, 07:18 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by braderjoe View Post
Turn the other cheek??
KJV
49 I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled? 50 But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished! 51 Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division: 52 For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three. 53 The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. (Luke 12:49-53)

NASB
Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and a man’s enemies will be the members of his household. He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. He who has found his life will lose it, and he who has lost his life for My sake will find it." (Matthew 10:34-39 NASB)
I see that you can thump yet do not reply to simple questions. Go hide.

Regards
DL
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Old 02-19-2009, 07:23 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by braderjoe View Post
Muslims take the middle path between the jews and the christians. The jews tried to kill Jesus while the christians try to deify him. Muslims view Jesus as just another line of human prophets/messengers sent by God. Jesus was sent to the jews of that era. Muslims revere Jesus as one of the greatest messengers of God alongside Abraham, Moses & Muhammad. The sad thing is - there was a survey done and quite a number of christians including priests etc no longer believe in his virgin birth. Muslims do.
A need to believe in miracles is a childish desire for power over nature.
Unhealthy and leads to belief in talking snakes and ten headed monsters.

1 Corinthians 13:11
When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.


Lets grow up.

Regards
DL
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Old 02-20-2009, 01:50 PM
 
Location: Colorado Springs
69 posts, read 107,639 times
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Default Gods' way or man's way?

Braderjoe wrote:
Quote:
“No one will atone for my sins except me. In Islam each person is judged on his own merits.”

“After judgement is done, the person will then be shown his place - be it heaven or hell.”

“There is no special savior, no priests, no holy men to intecede for you. The Creator doesn't need to sacrifice his son or anybody for man's salvation. Your own good deeds are what will save you. Now isn't that fair?”

Thanks for making that so clear. Good writing.

The problem is that you cannot atone for your own sins. The penalty for sin is spiritual death – eternal separation from God. That comes after physical death. Are you ready to pay that price?

for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God…
Romans 3:23

For the penalty of sin is death...
Romans 6:23

You wrote:
“After judgement is done, the person will then be shown his place - be it heaven or hell.”

True! Those are the only two places we can go after death. The problem lies in understanding what determines that destiny. How can we know where we will go?

The good news is that God has made a way for us to be with Him in heaven, but it has to be His way – and His way only! It isn’t up to us to decide the rules here, as so many are fond of doing. That’s a very deadly game to play.

You wrote:
“There is no special savior, no priests, no holy men to intecede for you. The Creator doesn't need to sacrifice his son or anybody for man's salvation. Your own good deeds are what will save you. Now isn't that fair?”

Let me try to put this gently. You and I and everyone else are simply born into this world, and we have no say in making the rules, be they natural (natural law) or spiritual (spiritual law). God has already made the rules, and, like it or not, those are the rules we must live by. I wrote about this in the thread,
http://www.city-data.com/forum/relig...eligion-3.html #22 (08-20-2008, 12:40 PM),
if you would care to read that.

Here are the rules, taken from the Bible, as simply as I can put them:
1) All men, except Jesus, have sinned
2) The penalty for that sin is eternal separation from God
3) God made one way – and one way only – for us to be saved from that penalty
4) That way is through the Saviour, Jesus Christ
5) Only Jesus can take away the penalty for our sins and set us free
6) It is up to each individual to choose Jesus’ gift of eternal life, or not
7) If not, if we choose some other way, we are rejecting God and choosing hell

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Romans 6:23

It’s that simple, and that hard.

For those born into the darkness of religious deception common in non-western countries, it is difficult to find the way out. But God promises to help, if we are willing to listen to him. When a man follows the light he is given, God will give more. When a man stops following that light, God will give no more. This is about hard truths, and if we let pride stand in the way, we will lose the light and embrace darkness. If you are open to truth, there is a way to find more.

Ask God (not Allah-don’t use a specific name) to reveal to you if Jesus Christ is indeed the only way to God. Ask daily. Mean it. Be open. Don’t resist His answer.

If you’re open to reading the Bible, it might help to read the book of John while awaiting Gods’ answer. God often speaks through His word. Fasting also helps when seeking God.

Do you know beyond all doubt that the Bible is wrong, or are you willing to seek God in this?

Last edited by John1701; 02-20-2009 at 02:13 PM..
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Old 02-22-2009, 10:47 AM
 
1,736 posts, read 1,845,004 times
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John

To hide behind a scapegoat is a poor moral position. Stop riding the cross and help carry it like a man. Step up child and show God that you have learned his lesons to you.

Regards
DL
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Old 02-22-2009, 10:50 AM
 
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John

Is the Jesus that you speak of the same Jesus/God that use a genocidal flood against mankind?

Would that not make the Jesus part a traitor to humanity?

Regards
DL
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Old 02-23-2009, 01:56 PM
 
995 posts, read 1,180,496 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greatest I am View Post
John

Is the Jesus that you speak of the same Jesus/God that use a genocidal flood against mankind?

Would that not make the Jesus part a traitor to humanity?

Regards
DL
Woweth....DL speaketh with fire-tongue
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