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Jesus/God sacrifices to Jesus/God. This is not a sacrifice, it is penance for sin.
8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
New Testament | Hebrews5 8
Yes, even though Jesus was perfect, he was still able to learn, and grow. One way to define perfect would be a being who eternally progresses. Perfection then is always in evolution.
Suffering comes from sin.
Sacrifice is done for or to God.
If Jesus/God sacrifices to or for himself as God then I submit that this is not a sacrifice.
If you were to sacrifice something to yourself, where is the sacrifice? All you have done is transferred something from your right hand to your left. In other words, no sacrifice at all.
If Jesus was doing anything with his death, it would then have been atonement for his sins.
We all learn from our mistakes and sins.
Thank God Eve chose to eat of the tree of knowledge or we could not learn as Jesus did.
Was the death of Jesus a penance or an atonement for his sins?
Read on into chapters 9/10. We see that instead of daily sacrifices, our High Priest Christ sacrificed himself, then sat down...no further sacrifice needed.
Read on into chapters 9/10. We see that instead of daily sacrifices, our High Priest Christ sacrificed himself, then sat down...no further sacrifice needed.
Any person that thinks it is ok to use a scapegoat Jesus to shoulder his responsibilities and blame for sin is immoral.
Handy for those sitting on the cross and adding weight to it.
Is this responsible Christian policy?
If so, I want to be a good Christian. How much money do you owe? I want to pay that debt for you and become your God.
Step up to your responsibilities. It is the right thing to do.
GIam wrote (I numbered the points):
1) “Suffering comes from sin.”
2) “If Jesus was doing anything with his death, it would then have been atonement for his sins.”
3) “Any person that thinks it is ok to use a scapegoat Jesus to shoulder his responsibilities and blame for sin is immoral.”
GIam, you have a serious misunderstanding of these issues.
First, suffering does not necessarily come as a result of a person’s own sin. If you were simply walking down a street, and a dog came running at you and bit you badly, you would suffer. But it wouldn’t be your fault or a result of your sin. Right? Innocent people suffer all the time, through no fault of their own.
Second, since Jesus had no sin, he needed no atonement for his sins.
2 Corinthians 5:21
“God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.”
1 Peter 2:22
"He committed no sin, and no deceit was found in his mouth."
1 Peter 3:18
“Christ suffered for our sins once for all time. He never sinned, but he died for sinners to bring you safely home to God. He suffered physical death, but he was raised to life in the Spirit.”
Third, since all of us mortals are sinners, and the penalty for sin is death, we ALL desperately need Jesus to be our scapegoat and atone for our sins. It is something we cannot do for ourselves, and so it is not a matter of failing to shoulder our responsibilities, and it is not immoral.
1 Peter 3:18
“Christ suffered for our sins once for all time. He never sinned, but he died for sinners to bring you safely home to God. He suffered physical death, but he was raised to life in the Spirit.”
Third, since all of us mortals are sinners, and the penalty for sin is death, we ALL desperately need Jesus to be our scapegoat and atone for our sins. It is something we cannot do for ourselves, and so it is not a matter of failing to shoulder our responsibilities, and it is not immoral.
Personal responsibility then doesn't comes into play? I'd rather take Islam's position where you don't make another person pay for your sins. You reap what you sow. Yes we're all mortals and sin every other time. That is why we need to repent and ask Him for forgiveness. There are lots of ways a person can be accounted for. For example, a person might not be the dutiful worshiper but in his favour, he's a person who always goes out of his way to help others. When its time to judge, all these actions are taken into consideration.
That is the problem : Jesus died for our sins so we don't have to. As long as we believe in Jesus, we can do what we like. This kind of thinking will only lead to moral decay
neither. he was martyred on the cross to fulfill scripture he carefully and methodically documented this objective step by step in the gospels. the result was an enormous religious movement that affected the world. what was merely a jewish sect became a world religion. as to true intention of this act we can only look to his own words for explanation.
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