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GIam, you’ve believed too many lies. Satan would kill everyone on earth if he had the power. So would “your” god, who serves Satan. He hates mankind, because God loves us. Satan hates what God loves.
Genocide against man? How many billions of people are living right now? You’re blinded by your darkness. God loves men more than you. Would you give your life to save mankind, or even one person? God already did, through Jesus.
But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Romans 5:8
God proved his love for us. Would Satan die for anyone? Hell no! He’s the most selfish being in the universe. He lives by lies and deceit, and he’s going to take as many people to hell with him as he possibly can. Right now, he’s got you. The more you resist the truth, the more you will be blinded, and the deeper into darkness you will fall. If you hate Christ, then Satan will be your god forever.
GIam, Satan is no more myth than you are. He’s your god, until you choose otherwise.
It’s funny that you keep calling me a child, yet it is you who refuse to deal with your mental contradictions and continue to run away from difficult issues. You’re the one acting like an intellectual child. So, you can keep running, like a child, or you can deal with the following two issues:
Quote:
Put simply, by feeding a starving man, which you [GIam] claim is good, you may be shouldering his responsibility, which you claim is immoral.
You cannot have it both ways. Which is right?
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If you make a clay pot with your clay, it is your property. Therefore, you have the right to destroy it.
I, on the other hand, do not have the right to destroy your pot. Right?
Since God created us and we are all literally His property, He has the right to destroy us. We, however, did not create eachother, we don't own eachother, therefore we do not have the right to destroy eachother.
It's a matter of true ownership, and only God truly owns anything. We, basically, just use the materials He has provided us. We're all tenants on His land, using His property.
There they are. You can deal, or you can hide in a corner.
GIam, Satan is no more myth than you are. He’s your god, until you choose otherwise.
It’s funny that you keep calling me a child, yet it is you who refuse to deal with your mental contradictions and continue to run away from difficult issues. You’re the one acting like an intellectual child. So, you can keep running, like a child, or you can deal with the following two issues:
There they are. You can deal, or you can hide in a corner.
Clay is not conscious and cannot take freedom. We can. If you do not see the difference then you are lost.
God's pot shop is now full of broken pots. The mark of a poor potter who does not know how to make good pots. His watches do not keep time either. Perhaps he should try a new trade.
GIam, I see you have – AGAIN – avoided the first issue. You have an amazingly hard time admitting when you’ve contradicted yourself. Too much pride?
Here it is again – deal with it or go hide in a corner, child:
Quote:
Put simply, by feeding a starving man, which you [GIam] claim is good, you may be shouldering his responsibility, which you claim is immoral.
You cannot have it both ways. Which is right?
As to your attempt to deal with the second issue, that of God’s ownership of mankind, your points are irrelevant and refuted.
You wrote:
“Clay is not conscious and cannot take freedom. We can. If you do not see the difference then you are lost.”
Irrelevant. Yes, I can see the difference between consciousness and non-consciousness, but it makes no difference to the point I made. God created all things, and He owns all things, be they conscious or non-conscious. Even though people can take freedom (nice of you to admit that), God still owns us – we’re His property.
You wrote:
“God's pot shop is now full of broken pots. The mark of a poor potter who does not know how to make good pots.”
Man, your irrationality is becoming tiresome. First you admit that men have free will, then, when we use that freedom to sin, you blame God for making us wrong – for making bad pots. You really seem to have trouble thinking logically; your train of thought keeps derailing.
You cannot have it both ways. Which is right? Did He give us free will, or not?
Let me explain this in more detail so you might be able to grasp it.
God gave us free will (we took freedom – remember?), and we used it to disobey Him (to sin). That choice led to a damaged and decaying creation, including flawed, corrupt, and sinful people. The fact that we chose sin doesn’t mean God created us wrong. Choice is choice, and for us to be free we had to be able to make real choices, right or wrong. We chose wrong. When you are free, you have the freedom to choose wrong. Why can’t you see this? It’s not complicated, and it doesn’t make God a poor potter.
You wrote:
“Genocide is a sin of high order.”
For men, yes; for God, no. He made us, He owns us, and He rules the universe. We’re His property, and He has the right to destroy us. It’s that simple.
You keep making up your own rules for the world, and they don’t matter. If you think God doesn’t have the right to destroy His creation – us – then you are wrong. He has the right. If you disagree, so what? Your opinion is irrelevant – it won’t change the truth.
You keep making up your own rules for the world, and they don’t matter. If you think God doesn’t have the right to destroy His creation – us – then you are wrong. He has the right. If you disagree, so what? Your opinion is irrelevant – it won’t change the truth.
I find myself agreeing with John here despite our different beliefs regarding Jesus
GIam. We are His slaves, His creation. You cannot label God as unjust or unkind because He is not like us. We are not made in His image. He is infact the Most Just and the Most Compassionate. That is why we are commanded to supplicate ourselves before His Glory.
What happens in this world are of our own making. Yes He can stop all the bad things from happening if He desires but the purpose of our being here is a Test by Him. In fact, this Test is the most important in our short lives coz success means eternal paradise whereas failure literally means eternal damnation. What you desire for in this world will be fulfilled, in that place called paradise. That is the prize waiting for us who believe in Him and worship and live our lives for Him. That is what all those thousands of prophets/messengers were appointed to be - to teach the people and show them how to worship and live their lives for Him.
Atheists always use the miseries of this world to justify their arguments of the non-existence of God. They failed to get the point that a better, in fact, the perfect world awaits them but only if they submit themselves before Him
Braderjoe, you agree with me??? Man, it must be getting kinda frosty down there in hell.
Anyway, since GIam refuses to deal with his contradictions in reasoning and has nothing new to say, maybe we could continue.
Did you miss my post#37 on page 4, 02-20-2009, 12:50 PM, titled: Gods' way or man's way?
You never replied to it.
Anyway, I like what you wrote in your last post:
“this Test is the most important in our short lives coz success means eternal paradise whereas failure literally means eternal damnation… the perfect world awaits them but only if they submit themselves before Him ”
Very true. The key, as you say, is to submit ourselves before Him. We have to do it His way and not our way, and His way is the messiah. That’s the only way, and anyone who rejects it and takes man’s way, is not submitting himself to God.
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." John 3:16
To allow someone else to shoulder our responsibilities is immoral.
Do you pay your own taxes or do you look for someone else to do it for you?
Would you let another human, suffer a hardship that you cause in this world?
If yes then you are immoral.
Are you here to add weight to the cross or help carry it?
Show any other scenario that shows where it is good to use a scapegoat. You cannot. Right?
Regards
DL
It sounds like you are saying that because Jesus came and died in our place, that it is wrong for us to accept it. Actually a person does not have to accept Jesus, they can just go to Hell, if they like. So, if you you do not want to accept what Jesus did for us, then you are free to decline and spend the rest of your life in Hell if that is what you would like.
We did not do it, He did. If Jesus had not came and did what He did, you and I would be in Hell.
Jesus paid for our sins, but that does not give us a free pass to sin.
The problem is that you cannot atone for your own sins. The penalty for sin is spiritual death – eternal separation from God. That comes after physical death. Are you ready to pay that price? for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God… Romans 3:23 For the penalty of sin is death... Romans 6:23
No one can really atone for all that he had done. A story : A follower of Moses who was known for his piety had his day in 'court' on the day of judgment. The Angel asked him whether he would like to be placed in Heaven by God's mercy or by his deeds. He replied that he would like to be judged by his deeds,confident because he was a really pious guy. So God instructed that his eyeballs be placed on the Scale of Justice. Immediately the scale weighed down showing how much sins the guy's eyeballs had been up to . Immediately the guy pleaded to be placed in heaven on God's mercy. Yes our good deeds will be our salvation but eventually where we end up will still be upon God's grace.
My question to you then is : Are you ready to dice with your eternal life by deifying a human being Jesus to the same level as God?
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Originally Posted by John1701
You wrote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by John1701
“After judgement is done, the person will then be shown his place - be it heaven or hell.”
True! Those are the only two places we can go after death. The problem lies in understanding what determines that destiny. How can we know where we will go?
The good news is that God has made a way for us to be with Him in heaven, but it has to be His way – and His way only! It isn’t up to us to decide the rules here, as so many are fond of doing. That’s a very deadly game to play.
Yes you are right. It isnt up to us. So would you expect me to place my soul's fate on a book that was translated and filled with errors and contradictions all over the place? And expect to me believe that that book bears God's seal/trademark/copyright? I will if you can show me an original bible - the one that Jesus was presented to by God - the Injil
Quote:
Originally Posted by John1701
You wrote: “There is no special savior, no priests, no holy men to intecede for you. The Creator doesn't need to sacrifice his son or anybody for man's salvation. Your own good deeds are what will save you. Now isn't that fair?”
Here are the rules, taken from the Bible, as simply as I can put them:
1) All men, except Jesus, have sinned
2) The penalty for that sin is eternal separation from God
3) God made one way – and one way only – for us to be saved from that penalty
4) That way is through the Saviour, Jesus Christ
5) Only Jesus can take away the penalty for our sins and set us free
6) It is up to each individual to choose Jesus’ gift of eternal life, or not
7) If not, if we choose some other way, we are rejecting God and choosing hell
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 6:23
It’s that simple, and that hard.
For those born into the darkness of religious deception common in non-western countries, it is difficult to find the way out. But God promises to help, if we are willing to listen to him. When a man follows the light he is given, God will give more. When a man stops following that light, God will give no more. This is about hard truths, and if we let pride stand in the way, we will lose the light and embrace darkness. If you are open to truth, there is a way to find more.
Ask God (not Allah-don’t use a specific name) to reveal to you if Jesus Christ is indeed the only way to God. Ask daily. Mean it. Be open. Don’t resist His answer.
If you’re open to reading the Bible, it might help to read the book of John while awaiting Gods’ answer. God often speaks through His word. Fasting also helps when seeking God.
Do you know beyond all doubt that the Bible is wrong, or are you willing to seek God in this?
1. Err...The 3 Great Religions originate from the East not the West
2. Regarding John : That begs the Question : How many sons does God have?
Jesus - God sent his only begotten son into the world. -- 1 John 4:9
Many sons of God - That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose. ...
There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them. -- Genesis 6:2-4
Satan a son of God? - Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD. -- Job 2:1
God's sons were present when the universe was created - Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy? -- Job 38:6-7
Christians are God's sons - But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God. -- John 1:12
So...seems to me its no big deal being a son of God
Why do you think God appointed human beings to be his Prophets or Messengers and not Angels? Its because they are humans. Isnt it much easier to follow a fellow human rather than an angel or some other forms of life that are not like us? I mean even now in our so-called modern times, we have people who do not want to follow a fellow who can help them just because of their race or culture etc etc. An example, if an Angel was sent down to lead mankind to worship God - would we humans be able to follow the Angel in his worship? Angels do not know hunger or fatigue so they are capable of worshiping God for 24 hrs non-stop! So humans were selected - mind you, not just your ordinary tom,dick or harry. These Prophets assigned to lead their society are men with impeccable character. Their only sole purpose is to follow God's Commandments and lead their people onto the right path. That is why I find the stories in the bible somewhat sad because of the falsehoods in it. You have stories of King David committing adultery or Solomon who was led astray or Lot comitting incest! My God! May God preserve us. Can't you see these are all lies? God would never appoint someone with such a moral defect to be his spokesman on earth...Never! All the Prophets/Messengers are human but nevertheless they do not do all the lies as told in the bible. God had already forewarned about tampering with His Books in the Quran. Letting us know that the Torah and the Bible had been tampered with by human hands.
Just think, i appeal to you. Jesus never once said that He was God. He was just another prophet in a long list of prophets sent by God, with Muhammad being the last ie the Seal of the Prophets. He was only sent down for the Jews not the Gentiles. In fact, Jesus never did fulfil his task as a Prophet, being taken up by God just before the Crucification. Muslims believe Jesus will return to earth to battle the Anti-Christ and win though he will not be bringing a new religion or renewing Christianity. Rather he will follow the religion of Islam, since he was a muslim all along. He will rule for a few more years before dying and will be buried alongside Prophet Muhammad in Medina. Remember muslim means one who submits - nothing to do with being a mohamadan or whatever. All the previous prophets were muslims - submitting themselves before God.
"After these things God tested Abraham, and said to him, ‘Abraham!’ And he said, ‘Here am I.’ He said, ‘Take your son, your only son Isaac, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt offering upon one of the mountains of which I shall tell you’." (Genesis 22:1-2, R.S.V.).
The lines above? How can Isaac be his only son when Ishmael was Abraham's only son for 13 years! In one of the most blatant examples of interpolation, the Jews have inserted the name of Isaac (sws) in place of Ishmael (sws) to cut off the relationship of Muhammad (sws) with Arabia and his great ancestor Abraham (sws).
"The angel of the Lord called to Abraham from heaven a second time and said, ‘I swear by myself, declares the Lord, that because you have done this and have not withheld your son, your only son, I will surely bless you and make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as the sand on the seashore. Your descendants will take possession of the cities of their enemies, and through your offspring all nations on earth will be blessed, because you have obeyed me.’ (Genesis 22:1-18)
Please bear in mind, that Abraham married Hagar legally thus Ishmael was his legitimate son
So man cannot atone on his own and must make God a hero.
Isn't that nice for God. Just what he needed. To be a hero to his sheep/slaves.
Fundamentals hurt their own religions.
Any that think that using a scapegoat for redemption is good are wrong. You are immoral if you use Jesus as your scapegoat.
Regards
DL
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Deal with the issues, GIam
. Immediately the guy pleaded to be placed in heaven on God's mercy. Yes our good deeds will be our salvation but eventually where we end up will still be upon God's grace.
