U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 02-10-2009, 09:31 AM
 
Location: Downtown Omaha
1,362 posts, read 4,121,854 times
Reputation: 519

Advertisements

While I was in the church I always heard that god has "a plan". From beginning to end it's all planned out and god knows exactly what's going to happen.

Here's the problem.

He also gave people free will. Again, when I was in the church I always heard that god didn't make us robots because he wants us to love him willfully unlike the angels who don't get a choice (but what about the devil? That's another topic though...)

So the point is if we do really have free will to choose things than how can god have a predestined plan and not have people's actions controlled into acheiving his preordained plan? If everything is supposed to work out towards his plan than doesn't that mean we really don't have free will?

And you all know what they say about the best laid plans..... Just another whole I see in the christian logic.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 02-10-2009, 09:59 AM
 
4,669 posts, read 3,903,673 times
Reputation: 409
You're getting into the classic debate of Calvinism versus Arminianism. There are devout Christians on both sides. Some believe that God has predestined every single action we do....others believe that God does give us choices.

Personally, after studying the Bible more and more, I'm convinced God is sovereign over all. Throughout the Bible, we see examples of people called by God. I don't believe the apostle Paul had a choice, or Mary, the mother of Jesus....or the other apostles.

I don't know how it works out, or exactly how much free will we have....but I thank God that he saved me. I deserve to be cast into hell for eternity...but he saved me instead.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-10-2009, 10:00 AM
 
1,788 posts, read 4,149,849 times
Reputation: 1232
I am the master of my own destiny, and I make all my own choices.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-10-2009, 10:56 AM
 
Location: Toronto, ON
2,333 posts, read 2,443,166 times
Reputation: 258
O.K., Zug zub, is that destiny in mankind or is that destiny in the state? Nature will surround you in both cases but one's masterly state of recognition is already the State for the state of natural Co-operation.

But we shall not co-operate for the car industry must and can no longer tag along for consumer business motivation.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-10-2009, 11:07 AM
 
1,403 posts, read 3,053,299 times
Reputation: 1308
Quote:
Originally Posted by kdbrich View Post

I don't know how it works out, or exactly how much free will we have....but I thank God that he saved me. I deserve to be cast into hell for eternity...but he saved me instead.
Well, aren't you lucky!

So what about that poor sap that doesn't "make the cut" and will end up in hell? Doesn't sound like a very benevolent God to me. What did this person do to not make the cut?

As an aside, how do you know exactly that you are "saved"? I hope for your sake you got it in writing...from what I read it sounds like God is kinda fickle.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-10-2009, 11:13 AM
 
Location: Wisconsin
521 posts, read 790,600 times
Reputation: 174
Quote:
Originally Posted by DTO Luv View Post
While I was in the church I always heard that god has "a plan". From beginning to end it's all planned out and god knows exactly what's going to happen.

Here's the problem.

He also gave people free will. Again, when I was in the church I always heard that god didn't make us robots because he wants us to love him willfully unlike the angels who don't get a choice (but what about the devil? That's another topic though...)

So the point is if we do really have free will to choose things than how can god have a predestined plan and not have people's actions controlled into acheiving his preordained plan? If everything is supposed to work out towards his plan than doesn't that mean we really don't have free will?

And you all know what they say about the best laid plans..... Just another whole I see in the christian logic.
This is another example of how omciscience over rides free will, and another example of god contradicting himself.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-10-2009, 11:20 AM
 
Location: Downtown Omaha
1,362 posts, read 4,121,854 times
Reputation: 519
Eaxactly. If we were all supposed to act according to plan than why get out of bed in the morning since it ultimately doesn't matter? It angers me to no end when I hear people say things about it all being "all part of the plan", unless it's The Joker.

When people want to control every ascpect of your life to fulfill their specified plan and expect your loyalty they're called cult leaders. Why is it ok for god to do it?

So if god does have a plan for everyone than why do some people get mowed down in drive bys? It's part of the plan so it's ok. Why do some people get uncurable diseases and die slowly and painfully? It's part of the plan so it's ok. Abortion? God hasn't stopped it, so it all must be part of his plan.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-10-2009, 11:26 AM
 
4,669 posts, read 3,903,673 times
Reputation: 409
Quote:
Originally Posted by broadbill View Post
Well, aren't you lucky!

So what about that poor sap that doesn't "make the cut" and will end up in hell? Doesn't sound like a very benevolent God to me. What did this person do to not make the cut?


We all deserve hell. Honestly? I don't know how or why God chooses people. But he is the one that created us...I'm not arrogant enough to say he's wrong. I'm guessing there is more to it than what I can see.

Quote:



As an aside, how do you know exactly that you are "saved"? I hope for your sake you got it in writing...from what I read it sounds like God is kinda fickle.
I did get it in writing--the Bible.

I believed and repented--that was God's will.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-10-2009, 11:28 AM
 
Location: Downtown Omaha
1,362 posts, read 4,121,854 times
Reputation: 519
Quote:
Originally Posted by kdbrich View Post
You're getting into the classic debate of Calvinism versus Arminianism. There are devout Christians on both sides. Some believe that God has predestined every single action we do....others believe that God does give us choices.
So if god does give you a choice doesn't that mean you can derail his whole plan?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 02-10-2009, 11:34 AM
 
148 posts, read 257,538 times
Reputation: 29
The free will is given, no one can deny it.

Also, the Will of God is Over our Wills.

Will as you wish, If God hadn't willed
The only thing you can do is nothing

Allah is The Ever Lasting Refuge
without my Lord, Every thing is nothing

The plan is detailed and nothing happen but after God's Permission, the only way to escape from what is written of some evil things is to escape to God by praying.

God is Good and He wrote many good things and some evil things for a good and noble purposes like the poison in medicine.


Also, the devil is not an angel, he is from jinns, he was raised by the God when he was a good jinn, but when he became bad, he was thrown out.

May Allah guide me and you my brothers/sisters to paradise.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2018, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top