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Old 02-12-2009, 12:15 PM
 
Location: Canada
589 posts, read 1,316,367 times
Reputation: 251

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Quote:
Originally Posted by kdbrich View Post
So when David said he'd see his baby after he died, he was wrong?

When Paul said to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord is wrong?

When Jesus told the thief on the cross he'd be with him that day in paradise, he was just joking?



That's not really Biblical. There will be a judgment...but not a chance to accept salvation, as you state.

In any event, what are you saying salvation will be based off of at that time?
If a baby is aborted as a fetus... Is God so unfair as to condemn the aborted person and not give him/her a chance to know the truth? What about the retarded, or the OP's question: those who never heard about God in their lifetime? There's a good reason why The Great White Throne Judgment is called that, a JUDGMENT." We don't know how long this period is... could be several hundred years.

David will see his baby after he died ... the answer is yes... in the resurrection!

The thief on the cross... JC said: I say unto you today, you will be with me in Paradise. That means he will be unconscious when he died... until the resurrection... then he will be with JC in Paradise!

In Rev 20
12: And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13: And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14: And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15: And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

_________________________________
Note: "Hell" here means the grave or tomb.
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Old 02-12-2009, 08:54 PM
 
Location: South Carolina
3,586 posts, read 5,344,680 times
Reputation: 576
Quote:
Originally Posted by hkgal View Post
...you never even had the opportunity to accept Jesus Christ as your lord and saviour?

So if you happen to be born in a place where the people around you are Christians, or where you are exposed to Christianity, then you likely have ample opportunity to do whatever you need to do to get to heaven, should you choose to.

However, if you were born in a place where there are no Christians and you don't even know of the existence of Christianity, and/or everyone else is another faith (i.e. Hindu, Buddhist, etc), and you never have to opportunity to know and accept Jesus Christ, is that reason enough for you to go to hell? If so, why should you be punished for something you can't help?
Jesus told his disciples to go out to the end of the world to spread the Gospel to everyone. So that is why you hear of people excepting Jesus who live in india, china, afria and all over. We are to take Jesus Gospel to everyone.
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Old 02-13-2009, 04:09 AM
 
2,255 posts, read 4,797,170 times
Reputation: 771
Quote:
Originally Posted by coosjoaquin View Post
People who do not believe in the bible cannot go to hell.
Actually they do. But so do those who claim to be Christian. The Hebrew and Greek words their ecclesiastical leadership loves to mistranslate ('sheol' & 'hades') simply means the common grave of mankind. But the problem is if they translate it properly, it ruins all those good Stephen King's movies.
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Old 02-13-2009, 04:35 AM
 
2,255 posts, read 4,797,170 times
Reputation: 771
Quote:
Originally Posted by shawn_2828 View Post
Jesus told his disciples to go out to the end of the world to spread the Gospel to everyone. So that is why you hear of people excepting Jesus who live in india, china, afria and all over. We are to take Jesus Gospel to everyone.
Unfortunately here is the problem. As long as you have an Ecclesiastical Hierarchy that refuses to practice what they preach, fewer and fewer people will find any credibility to the message. What the original poster was asking, what about those who never heard the message. However , I say what about people from other countries who were mistreated and enslaved by white Imperialist European countries who had both Catholic and Prostestant blessings for doing so. Is it really their fault the message was fouled by the conduct of it's leadership ???

Look at the centuries where clerics have enriched themselves at the expense of the poor. Can you understand why more people today are hesitant about believing anything they preach ??? Let me illustrate it this way:

Let's say you're a bald headed guy. Another guy comes along and he's selling a formula which he tries to convince you is guaranteed to regrow your hair. Now it sounds good and everything and you'd like to try anything to regrow hair on your bald head, but the problem is in accepting it, you just can't seem to get past the fact that this guy is also a bald headed guy. As long as this salesman has a bald head, he's not going to be successfull in selling his product until he himself actually uses the stuff he's pimping to others and actual results are seen by others.

When Jesus commanded his followers to be no part of the world, what do we see ??? The exact opposite. This world's Clergy stick their nose where it does'nt belong in various countries politics and even go as far as to encourage members to go out, fight and perhaps kill their brothers of the same exact faith, for no other reason than nationalistic pride. Back sometime last year I watched a documentary called "Abraham's Children". It dealt with Judaism, Christianity and Islam. All three claim to be the truth, but it's their historical conduct and passion for violence often have turned most thinking and reasoning people off to any kind of possitive message they may try to offer. Let's focus on this one interview that was done with this one Evangelical Baptist pastor they interviewed. The subject of the war in Iraq came up and this minister said to the news reporter, that he would have gone further than George Bush in sending 100,000 troops into Iraq. He would have sent 500,000 troops in and wiped out all those people out and their would have been no problem today. That warped thinking is outrageous and certainly, no one can be faulted for rejecting the message, since most of it's claimed adherents refuse to live by what their master taught.

Does that make any sense now ???
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Old 02-13-2009, 06:36 AM
 
124 posts, read 288,985 times
Reputation: 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by hkgal View Post
...you never even had the opportunity to accept Jesus Christ as your lord and saviour?

So if you happen to be born in a place where the people around you are Christians, or where you are exposed to Christianity, then you likely have ample opportunity to do whatever you need to do to get to heaven, should you choose to.

However, if you were born in a place where there are no Christians and you don't even know of the existence of Christianity, and/or everyone else is another faith (i.e. Hindu, Buddhist, etc), and you never have to opportunity to know and accept Jesus Christ, is that reason enough for you to go to hell? If so, why should you be punished for something you can't help?

No.

There is no hell.
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Old 02-13-2009, 06:52 AM
 
140 posts, read 177,449 times
Reputation: 38
Short answer is: if you believe in "hell" stuff, you are in hell (you may not know when your brain is numbed), and your going to be in hell after death. To others, there is no hell set up.

"hell" is a coercion/intimidation tool for religions to scare their followers. For them, they live their lives worrying about hell throughout lifetime. As they already know, that's where they are going to end up with. Think about it: how much time and money have you spent on religion? This is what you get for all your money and time spent: you are full of "sins" (you are not, but you are made to be believe you are), and you have no chance of getting saved from all your "sins" (otherwise, you don't need religion anymore) and you are going straight to hell after death.

For others, they live free-spirited lives without craps like "hell". They never needed hell in their lives, they don't need hell after deaths.
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Old 02-13-2009, 10:30 AM
 
Location: South Carolina
3,586 posts, read 5,344,680 times
Reputation: 576
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluepacific View Post
Unfortunately here is the problem. As long as you have an Ecclesiastical Hierarchy that refuses to practice what they preach, fewer and fewer people will find any credibility to the message. What the original poster was asking, what about those who never heard the message. However , I say what about people from other countries who were mistreated and enslaved by white Imperialist European countries who had both Catholic and Prostestant blessings for doing so. Is it really their fault the message was fouled by the conduct of it's leadership ???

Look at the centuries where clerics have enriched themselves at the expense of the poor. Can you understand why more people today are hesitant about believing anything they preach ??? Let me illustrate it this way:

Let's say you're a bald headed guy. Another guy comes along and he's selling a formula which he tries to convince you is guaranteed to regrow your hair. Now it sounds good and everything and you'd like to try anything to regrow hair on your bald head, but the problem is in accepting it, you just can't seem to get past the fact that this guy is also a bald headed guy. As long as this salesman has a bald head, he's not going to be successfull in selling his product until he himself actually uses the stuff he's pimping to others and actual results are seen by others.

When Jesus commanded his followers to be no part of the world, what do we see ??? The exact opposite. This world's Clergy stick their nose where it does'nt belong in various countries politics and even go as far as to encourage members to go out, fight and perhaps kill their brothers of the same exact faith, for no other reason than nationalistic pride. Back sometime last year I watched a documentary called "Abraham's Children". It dealt with Judaism, Christianity and Islam. All three claim to be the truth, but it's their historical conduct and passion for violence often have turned most thinking and reasoning people off to any kind of possitive message they may try to offer. Let's focus on this one interview that was done with this one Evangelical Baptist pastor they interviewed. The subject of the war in Iraq came up and this minister said to the news reporter, that he would have gone further than George Bush in sending 100,000 troops into Iraq. He would have sent 500,000 troops in and wiped out all those people out and their would have been no problem today. That warped thinking is outrageous and certainly, no one can be faulted for rejecting the message, since most of it's claimed adherents refuse to live by what their master taught.

Does that make any sense now ???

Yes, it does make since, but God created each and everyone of us and He knows what we need. Jesus told his diciples to go out and yes not mix with the world. But yes there are some who do, but that is not what Jesus told them to do?

So, if someone grows up lets just say Buddist. Then they are probably more likely to grow up Buddist, unless God sends someone into their country or sends someone to them. People are going into other countries, not just because they want to go, it is God sending them to other people. It may be because they can't make it to hear the Gospel, or they are surrounded by false teachers, or the Gospel is not being preached in that area, so God will send someone in that area. But there are some people who will still not except the Gospel of Jesus.

The OP asked would the person go to Hell if they never heard the Gospel. Well, my opinion I don't think God would do that because God created that person and He knows where they are. For instance. Lets's just say that someone is born in a cave and they live with only the mother and father. Well, if the parents don't know about God, then how will the child know. I believe that God will either send someone to them, or He will go to them Himself. I don't think that God is in the business of creating someone and then placing them in an environment of never hearing about Him. Elijah was in a cave and God spoke to Him. A person is not to far that God can't reach them.

I have heard of Muslims who were converted by Jesus themself, not people. I believe Jesus might have went, because of the surrounding faith that was around them. Jesus probably knew that the person probably would not believe if someone else came or knew that maybe the person was in an area that they could not hear the Gospel. So He went Himself. Now when you hear of Muslims converting to Jesus and calling Him God. Then you know that is God. So, Jesus went in some type of form or a vision. So, if Jesus can convert a Muslim, why can't He go to china, or india? He can and He will, but He will also send others who are His people.

There are even Atheist who are converted, so there is nothing to hard to God (Not even if you are stuck in a cave) He will just come to you Himself.

You know God will appear to people in a form if He chooses too.
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Old 02-13-2009, 12:28 PM
 
2,633 posts, read 4,451,128 times
Reputation: 586
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluepacific View Post
Actually they do. But so do those who claim to be Christian. The Hebrew and Greek words their ecclesiastical leadership loves to mistranslate ('sheol' & 'hades') simply means the common grave of mankind. But the problem is if they translate it properly, it ruins all those good Stephen King's movies.
That's fine though really my comments are directed at those who actually think that the "just because you don't believe in it" babble is a valid argument.
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Old 02-13-2009, 01:21 PM
 
995 posts, read 1,175,246 times
Reputation: 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by shawn_2828 View Post
I have heard of Muslims who were converted by Jesus themself, not people. I believe Jesus might have went, because of the surrounding faith that was around them. Jesus probably knew that the person probably would not believe if someone else came or knew that maybe the person was in an area that they could not hear the Gospel. So He went Himself. Now when you hear of Muslims converting to Jesus and calling Him God. Then you know that is God. So, Jesus went in some type of form or a vision. So, if Jesus can convert a Muslim, why can't He go to china, or india? He can and He will, but He will also send others who are His people.

There are even Atheist who are converted, so there is nothing to hard to God (Not even if you are stuck in a cave) He will just come to you Himself.

You know God will appear to people in a form if He chooses too.
Well...I've seen priests and pastors convert to Islam after they could no longer deny the truth. Which makes them unique coz they have studied the scriptures in depth and have all that knowledge and yet still convert to Islam after having studied it and compare it to their religion. Even scientists too
I think if you were to study the trend, you'll find that the muslims who leave their religion are mainly those who have minimal knowledge of their religion even though they might be well-educated in the secular way whereas if you study the stats of christian conversion to Islam, lots of those who converted are well-versed in their religion but have doubts that remained within them until they studied Islam and had their doubts removed
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Old 02-13-2009, 01:22 PM
 
7,654 posts, read 9,676,547 times
Reputation: 495
Quote:
Originally Posted by hkgal View Post
...you never even had the opportunity to accept Jesus Christ as your lord and saviour?

So if you happen to be born in a place where the people around you are Christians, or where you are exposed to Christianity, then you likely have ample opportunity to do whatever you need to do to get to heaven, should you choose to.

However, if you were born in a place where there are no Christians and you don't even know of the existence of Christianity, and/or everyone else is another faith (i.e. Hindu, Buddhist, etc), and you never have to opportunity to know and accept Jesus Christ, is that reason enough for you to go to hell? If so, why should you be punished for something you can't help?
In Islamic countries, the Christian faith is banned. Yet numerous stories are coming out of those countries that Jesus Christ is appearing to Islamics in their dreams and telling them to follow Him. If you seek the true God with an honest heart, He will reveal Himself to you. And it matters little if you have heard His name from a minister of the Gospel. People who seek God, will find Him no matter where they are. And those who find Him after they have searched for Him, will not be punished.
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