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Old 02-21-2009, 07:18 AM
 
Location: egypt
1,215 posts, read 1,993,012 times
Reputation: 161

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jackyfrost01 View Post
Leftydan did give you scientific explanation. How much clearer can it be. Life formed imho when things were just right at the right time, place, and moment for that to happen. It is much easier to beleive than some space alien magically poofing life here.
actually i'm exactly believe as you that Life formed when things were just right at the right time, place, and moment for that to happen.

the only difference between my thought and yours that i can add for the above statement this word "by God" and you can add the word " by chance"

actually i have self believes that( islam as to be my religion )not contradict the evolution theory , that's why i'm trying to find common language or common concepts for this issue for the sake of rational , logical and scuccessfull discussion


actually according to quran , Humans were created according a divinely guided evolution .
i don't think that any creationist confirmed that before in thier discussion with athiests
but actually i read this in quran

“Have they not seen how GOD initiates the creation, and then repeats it? This is easy for GOD to do. Say (O'mohammed to people) , ‘Roam the earth and find out the origin of life.’ For GOD will thus initiate the creation in the Hereafter. GOD is Omnipotent.” (29:19-20).

so the scientist trying to find out how the evolution of creation initiated . whether they found out or not , the reseruction will happen by the same scientific process called evolution

“He is the One who created you in stages. Do you not realize that GOD created seven universes in layers? He designed the moon therein to be a light, and placed the sun to be a lamp And GOD germinated you from the earth like plants.” (71:14-17).

my main point is that evolution not contradict my beliefs as a muslim


let us go through scientific discoveries of evolution of human

Donald E. Ingber, professor at Harvard University, in an article titled “The Architecture of Life” published as the cover story of Scientific American stated the following:
“Researchers now think biological evolution began in layers of clay, rather than in the primordial sea. Interestingly, clay is itself a porous network of atoms arranged geodesically within octahedral and tetrahedral forms. But because these octahedra and tetrahedra are not closely packed, they retain the ability to move and slide relative to one another. This flexibility apparently allows clay to catalyze many chemical reactions, including ones that may have produced the first molecular building blocks of organic life.”

Humans are the most advanced fruits of organic life started millions years ago from the layers of clay.

is that the evolution you trying to proof ?
becuase i read in the quran
“We created the human being from aged mud, like the potter’s clay.” (15:26).

and anothe verse said that GOD created every living creature from water which confirmed by the above article either
And GOD created every living creature from water. Some of them walk on their bellies, some walk on two legs, and some walk on four. GOD creates whatever He wills. GOD is Omnipotent.” (24:45).

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Old 02-21-2009, 07:44 AM
 
1,577 posts, read 3,269,425 times
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"by chance" is still more believable than "by God" (a mythological creature). At least given time, someone can research and document how that "chance" may have happened or not. No one will likely ever be able to positively research and prove anything about a cosmic mythical being with super powers.

"poof" is self explanatory and shouldn't need to be explained.
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Old 02-21-2009, 09:31 AM
 
Location: NC, USA
7,088 posts, read 12,713,807 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jroyals View Post
How is the fact of evolution bunk?


Do you know what the word theory means?
sorry guy, but, christers don't reason, they recite. That life has been around for hundreds of millions of years, to them, is a moot point. Their scheme of things doesn't have the patience to go from amoeba to more complex organism over tens of thousands of centuries, it had to be a "ZAP-THERE IT IS!!!" kind of thing. There is only dogma, not thought. To them evolution is only a theory. They do not seem to understand that, to be a "theory" in the scientific community is a big deal, (the other stuff is often called hair-brained ideas) it is the theory of relativity, the theory of gravitation, atomic theory, the theory of quantum mechanics, that matter falls into categories on the periodic chart of the elements is also a theory. To most reasonable people a theory is an attempt to explain what we see, some are more universally accepted than others. But, the major ones, the ones that science relies on day after day are not the "half-baked notions and outright lies" that the christers seem to think they are. They are, the best explanations of the world as we see it, that we have at the present time.
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Old 02-21-2009, 10:41 AM
 
1,788 posts, read 4,152,943 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dusty Rhodes View Post
sorry guy, but, christers don't reason, they recite. That life has been around for hundreds of millions of years, to them, is a moot point.
You mean, it's NOT a moot point. "Moot" means it's open to discussion.
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Old 02-21-2009, 05:46 PM
 
Location: Virginia Beach
7,450 posts, read 5,628,382 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kdbrich View Post
Honestly...we've given you plenty of evidence. I say you don't want to because I believe that you are trying to convince yourself there is not a creator.
Can you point to me where you've provided any scientific evidence of a Creator?

Because I can point you towards mountains upon mountains of proof for evolution.
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Old 02-22-2009, 12:56 AM
 
Location: Somewhere out there
9,616 posts, read 11,076,781 times
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Thumbs down Case Closed.

So.... let me see now...


We have elwill proclaiming that the q'ran is absolute, the truth, the way it happened.

We have kd with his usual denials and deflections and hostility telling us that HIS version is the absolute, the truth, the way it happened.

Both base their beliefs, their lives in fact, on ancient books written for peasant minds. There's been no other proof but those books, and they conflict at every turn, and the two groups have sought, for millenia, to slaughter each other. And to force their contents down the throats and minds of innocent chlldren and illiterate or accepting adults.

Their way of viewing reality is different than ours. They look at everything based on faith alone; we base our understanding on critical thinking, curiosity and a simple proven methodology for answering questions. We can willingly and easily alter our understandings of the world around it; they cannot and will not.

Either of you guys disagree with that? If you agree with my assessment, I suggest you go off and have at each other through DMs about which Truth is The Truth. Then come back and report to us as to which one is right, because until that little disagreement is sorted out, you can't actually EVER be convincing. Not even to yourself, in fact.

We, us silly stupid atheists, what do we have instead of a peasant guidebook? Well, you know only too well, and it's tiresome to have to point it out over and over.

But in one short line: we have ample enough evidence of the honest, conservative, non-violent kind that we've come to our own quiet conclusions. Apparently none of that evidence will ever convince you to stop and think about it for even a small moment.

Nothin more to say, boys! Your choice to remain mired in a world that suppresses curiosity and knowledge.

Battle on.
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Old 02-22-2009, 02:39 AM
 
Location: egypt
1,215 posts, read 1,993,012 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rifleman View Post
So.... let me see now...


We have elwill proclaiming that the q'ran is absolute, the truth, the way it happened.

We have kd with his usual denials and deflections and hostility telling us that HIS version is the absolute, the truth, the way it happened.

Both base their beliefs, their lives in fact, on ancient books written for peasant minds. There's been no other proof but those books, and they conflict at every turn, and the two groups have sought, for millenia, to slaughter each other. And to force their contents down the throats and minds of innocent chlldren and illiterate or accepting adults.
actually no one ever show me any conflicts in quran before , may be it happenes with the bible in each thread not with the quran

secondly , i just describe the situation of my religion according to evolution theory , actually you are trying to proof that evolution facts are contradicts my beliefs and i want to confirm that there's no conflict between my religion and evolution , in another words there is no contradictions between scientific facts and my religion

i'm very open to the science and discovered facts and i'm refering to it beside quran , i didn't mentioned quran alone in my discussions with athiest

Quote:
Their way of viewing reality is different than ours. They look at everything based on faith alone; we base our understanding on critical thinking, curiosity and a simple proven methodology for answering questions. We can willingly and easily alter our understandings of the world around it; they cannot and will not.
i base my understanding on critical thinking either , but i always find it compatible with quran
for my faith , actually i never used it as an evidence in my discussions , my faith is only for me , i can't lead discussions with nonmuslims by my faith , i have to support my view with common and acceptable sources between us

but anyway riflman , you can criticize my beliefs from scientific point of view ( you will be wellcome ) and i promise to you that i will go through the discussion with scientific facts alone to support my beliefs


Quote:
Either of you guys disagree with that? If you agree with my assessment, I suggest you go off and have at each other through DMs about which Truth is The Truth. Then come back and report to us as to which one is right, because until that little disagreement is sorted out, you can't actually EVER be convincing. Not even to yourself, in fact.
i don't know if you understood my intension in this thread from my previous answers !
but anyway i'm here to discuss this issue with you (athiests ) , i just trying to find the real conflicts between islam and athiesm

as long as you (athiest) are depend on science and realistic facts in your discussions , so its supposed for me to not find any conflicts between us . we just need to unite our understanding



Quote:
But in one short line: we have ample enough evidence of the honest, conservative, non-violent kind that we've come to our own quiet conclusions. Apparently none of that evidence will ever convince you to stop and think about it for even a small moment.
i confess that i find athiest more opened , logical , honest and objective than others
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Old 02-22-2009, 10:47 AM
 
Location: Somewhere out there
9,616 posts, read 11,076,781 times
Reputation: 3717
Default Thank you!

elwill: yoiur thoughts... (quote):

actually no one ever show me any conflicts in quran before , may be it happenes with the bible in each thread not with the quran

as long as you (athiest) are depend on science and realistic facts in your discussions , so its supposed for me to not find any conflicts between us . we just need to unite our understanding

i confess that i find athiest more opened , logical , honest and objective than others


..end quote.

Thanks for your polite response. I also appreciate your efforts in translating to English. Well done!

I wasn't saying that there is any conflicts within the q'ran, but rather conflicts between the q'ran and the bible. And of course you'd have to pick which biblical version you wanted to conflict with; Christians can't quite decide on One True Word of God. There certainly is a lot of conflict between Christianity and Islam, and over the centuries many have died accordingly.

Actually, these various threads have taught me that Islam is a far more rational religion, if I were to need one, than Christianity. It embraces science and rational thought, unlike Christianity.

Accordingly, I'd expect it to clash less with atheists than does dogmatic Xtianity. You confirm that, as does kd confirm the opposite in his responses.

My point was that perhaps Islam must first argue with Christianity and come to some mutual ideals before coming here to blast atheists, as many Christians do out of habit or requirement.

احترام بابزرگ
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