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Old 02-15-2009, 11:45 AM
 
Location: Richland, Washington
4,078 posts, read 4,980,620 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
I am utterly amazed at how supposedly knowledgeable and rational people can make statements like this AS IF they were saying something meaningful or explanatory. What are natural processes and how do you distinguish them from God processes . . . since they are the same processes (identical) . . . except for the name you prefer to use. It boggles.
It is ignorance to believe that natural processes are the same as 'god's processes' since they're polar opposites. Natural processes are the biological processes of the materrial world, absolutely no divine intervention or some invisible wizard controlling it. The two are completely different.

Last edited by agnostic soldier; 02-15-2009 at 12:12 PM..
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Old 02-15-2009, 12:09 PM
 
37,666 posts, read 25,381,611 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by agnostic soldier View Post
It is ignorance to believe that natural processes are the same as 'god's processes' since they're polar opposites.
Ignorance takes many forms. God is ALL that there is . . . there are no other processes. The ubiquity of the laws, all-encompasssing cradle responsible for life, sustaining life, motivating life . . . you call it Nature . . . seems pretty God-like to me.
Quote:
Natural processes are the biological processes of the materrial world, absolutely no divine intervention or some invisible wizard controlling it. The two are completely different.
Huh? Natural means what exactly that is different from "it just is" . . . which is exactly the same as God?
Quote:
Believers are incapable of discerning the difference between the two though since they want to pretend that their beliefs are anything other than nonsense.
This can be said about unbelievers, agnostic . . . without any other alteration. Just because you prefer the name "Nature" to God doesn't mean you have any more reason to do so. The descriptions of this Nature God are the only things that seem to bother you. That is what freedom of religion is all about . . . having your own descriptions. You and I prefer science's descriptions (I add a few more from personal experience and study). That is our prerogative . . . but it does not preclude others from using whatever descriptions they prefer and adding whatever other attributes they wish. NONE of that negates the reality of God at all . . . just the names used.
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Old 02-15-2009, 12:19 PM
 
Location: Richland, Washington
4,078 posts, read 4,980,620 times
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[quote=MysticPhD;7475532]Ignorance takes many forms. God is ALL that there is . . . there are no other processes. The ubiquity of the laws, all-encompasssing cradle responsible for life, sustaining life, motivating life . . . you call it Nature . . . seems pretty God-like to me. Huh? Natural means what exactly that is different from "it just is" . . . which is exactly the same as God? quote]


The problem with saying that the natural is just a different way of stating its god's processes is that it can't be empirically proven that there is a divine entity, unless someone is using god as a metaphor, otherwise it is nothing more than a value judgement and shouldn't be taken as something rational or true.
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Old 02-15-2009, 12:50 PM
 
4,512 posts, read 6,596,365 times
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[quote=agnostic soldier;7475648]
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Ignorance takes many forms. God is ALL that there is . . . there are no other processes. The ubiquity of the laws, all-encompasssing cradle responsible for life, sustaining life, motivating life . . . you call it Nature . . . seems pretty God-like to me. Huh? Natural means what exactly that is different from "it just is" . . . which is exactly the same as God? quote]


The problem with saying that the natural is just a different way of stating its god's processes is that it can't be empirically proven that there is a divine entity, unless someone is using god as a metaphor, otherwise it is nothing more than a value judgement and shouldn't be taken as something rational or true.

the problem is with just talking about different knowledge although using the same language.
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Old 02-15-2009, 04:31 PM
 
37,666 posts, read 25,381,611 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by agnostic soldier View Post
[The problem with saying that the natural is just a different way of stating its god's processes is that it can't be empirically proven that there is a divine entity, unless someone is using god as a metaphor, otherwise it is nothing more than a value judgement and shouldn't be taken as something rational or true.
I will try one more time. . . . it can't be empirically proven that there is a "nature entity"??? What metaphor . . . "IT JUST IS." It is no less God or all-encompassing, or all life sustaining, or . . . whatever . . . because you call it "Nature." IT is no less an "entity" because we do not fully understand it. You keep attacking other people's descriptions of the attributes of this "nature entity" with their descriptions like "divine", supernatural" blah, blah, blah.

Of course the descriptions not yet fully understood by science will vary . . . that is our freedom. Besides . . . ALL attributes contain value judgments within them (yours are . . ."indifferent, purposeless, impersonal, random") that cannot be proven by artificial mathematical expressions of our ignorance (probabilities) . . . no matter how scientific-sounding or useful our models of ignorance might be otherwise. After all . . . that was the original attribute of God . . . inscrutable.
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Old 02-16-2009, 07:44 AM
 
4,669 posts, read 3,922,674 times
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wow....they took some chemicals that already exist and created an artificial environment, and managed to produce some amino acids.

How is that life?
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Old 02-16-2009, 08:39 AM
 
1,577 posts, read 3,275,661 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kdbrich View Post
life comes from life....

how'd the first life come around, if not for creation?
Thru a natural process, where the temperature was just right, the atmospheric pressures and chemical reactions were just exactly right at that precise moment.

Its alot easier to swallow than just trying to make people believe that someone snapped their fingers and made us appear out of nothing. That just doesn't make sense. You cannot create something from nothing. You have to have the right ingredients and right situation for something to be made, and that is what I persoanlly think happened. Not that it matters one way or another really.
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Old 02-16-2009, 10:46 AM
 
37,666 posts, read 25,381,611 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jackyfrost01 View Post
Thru a natural process,
Have you bothered to read anything in this thread? What you just said is no more scientific or meaningful than God did it . . . through a God process.
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Old 02-16-2009, 11:32 AM
 
2,633 posts, read 4,459,422 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Have you bothered to read anything in this thread? What you just said is no more scientific or meaningful than God did it . . . through a God process.
Of what use is that if you don't even bother to define god.

Now showing that it is possible for life to come about by itself under the right conditions is awesome. More reason to believe that Atheists are right.
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Old 02-16-2009, 12:27 PM
 
4,669 posts, read 3,922,674 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jackyfrost01 View Post
Thru a natural process, where the temperature was just right, the atmospheric pressures and chemical reactions were just exactly right at that precise moment.
Never....EVER been observed, by the way.
Quote:

Its alot easier to swallow than just trying to make people believe that someone snapped their fingers and made us appear out of nothing. That just doesn't make sense. You cannot create something from nothing. You have to have the right ingredients and right situation for something to be made, and that is what I persoanlly think happened. Not that it matters one way or another really.
So you're substituting an omnipotent God with omnipotent chance...or omnipotent chemistry.

LOL...ok.

Really...the words of Solomon a few thousands years still ring true. There is nothing new under the sun. You guys can't come up with anything new...only the delivery of it.
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