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Old 02-16-2009, 03:20 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Clearly the obtuseness was not deliberate . . . "carried out" has some import . . don't you think?
The scientists just recreated conditions to see if the formation of proteins was posible. They showed that it was.

I get the impression that you want scientific experiments to be carried out without the involvement of scientists or else they don't count. I don't see how that's possible.
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Old 02-16-2009, 05:30 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coosjoaquin View Post
The scientists just recreated conditions to see if the formation of proteins was posible. They showed that it was.

I get the impression that you want scientific experiments to be carried out without the involvement of scientists or else they don't count. I don't see how that's possible.
Ding,Ding, Ding . . . hence my "utterly impossible" assertion. Let's face it . . . if I am right . . . we are part of God (your Nature) . . . so everything that we do is being done by God anyway. Until we can pluck something literally out of nothing and produce life . . . all we are capable of doing is describing HOW God did it (or does it) . . . since your alternative nature is just another name (and set of descriptions) for God. Get over it.
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Old 02-16-2009, 05:54 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
Ding,Ding, Ding . . . hence my "utterly impossible" assertion. Let's face it . . . if I am right . . . we are part of God (your Nature) . . . so everything that we do is being done by God anyway. Until we can pluck something literally out of nothing and produce life . . . all we are capable of doing is describing HOW God did it (or does it) . . . since your alternative nature is just another name (and set of descriptions) for God. Get over it.
A red herring and a statement of the obvious. Yes mystic, we can only describe how nature works.


Do you believe that nature has a consciousness?
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Old 02-16-2009, 06:09 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coosjoaquin View Post
A red herring and a statement of the obvious. Yes mystic, we can only describe how nature works.


Do you believe that nature has a consciousness?

maybe it's so awkward.
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Old 02-16-2009, 06:48 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coosjoaquin View Post
A red herring and a statement of the obvious. Yes mystic, we can only describe how nature works.
Apparently not so obvious. And your statement applies equally if you change the name to God! Consequently . . . the name change is as I have characterized it . . . a result of the enmity between science and religion (entirely the fault of the religions).
Quote:
Do you believe that nature has a consciousness?
OF course I do . . . we are part of nature and we have consciousness. We also have no other candidate for the universal field that defines the metrics of our reality (which you seem to have so much difficulty comprehending.)I am all ears . . . if you have an alternative for it? At least we have ample evidence that consciousness does exist as a phenomenon (6 billion +).
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Old 02-16-2009, 08:52 PM
 
Location: Somewhere out there
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Talking "woooo...oooOOOooooo" sayeth The Loon....

Quote:
Originally Posted by kdbrich View Post
wow....they took some chemicals that already exist and created an artificial environment, and managed to produce some amino acids.

How is that life?
Since no-one will ever likely KNOW how life started, we have several options to faithfully "Believe In". One, it indeed did happen by (ever-more tested and thus provable) chance combinations of chance-formed amino acids, on Earth, which is simply one of the "gazillions X quintillions X bazillions" of extant planets out there.

Or, Two, by a one-true-specific God (Capital "G" to distinquish Her from one of the many thousands of equally believable small-"g" gods out there;

.....a "Poof", there, I'm done!" hypothesis.

Sure. That's easily quite a bit more believable than what science is showing as some possible alternatives.

A born-again ex-friend of mine told me that his God was simultaneously controlling each and every sub-atomic particle in the entire endless universe all at the same time in order to keep it all under Her control.

(Well, he was an utterly chauvinistic Southern Baptist pig-headed male who wanted his wife's specific bedtime obedience according to The Southern Baptist Conference's decision in about 1995... So his God would naturally be a He, not a Her...).

I'm told that according to the silly ID theorists, that certain things like the human eye are "irreduceably complex" and hence MUST HAVE BEEN DESIGNED by a hyper-intelligent Creator (they mean God, BTW...).

I suggest, as an alternative, that what we'd have to have here, if all that ID stuff were true, is a being with an infinite intelligence, and a memory of infinite capacity, and an infinite patience and an infinite boredom threshold, and an infinite appetite for the micro-minor-nano-details of constantly keeping the Pluon-orbit of an atom within a grain of silica on the sub-gaseous partial-planet "Boh-Ring" in the Constellation "Snorezzzon", one of a quintrillion. Oh yeah, and all the rest of the orbits and interactions and gravitational phase variations and fluxes and cow farts and sinner's deeds and pedophile priests' behaviors and and and .....


Sigh. Is all I can say. Sigh. sigh.

And to thus think that the BEST He/She could come up with in this entire endless universe, which my boring friend also stated was THE ONLY ONE WITH INTELLIGENT LIFE ON BOARD, was us? Really? This is it? Us? We meaningless, inept, bloodthirsty, endlessly greedy sinful souls is IT?

Personally, since I arrogantly know better, that we truly are just an ongoing evolutionary experiment, I'm much happier about my minor lot in life. I don't propose to have been formed in God's sorry bored image.

Quote:
Originally Posted by coosjoaquin View Post
The scientists just recreated conditions to see if the formation of proteins was posible. They showed that it was.

I get the impression that you want scientific experiments to be carried out without the involvement of scientists or else they don't count. I don't see how that's possible.
Well, coos, true scientists aren't frantically afraid of finding out how things work. Christians, the fundy kind, are. If it makes TV reception better, it's good science. If it proves Evolution, it's bad science. Why can't you get this through your silly head, coos?

My oddly semi-Christian teenaged son ("This too shall pass, he intoned...")
says that such audacious statements as he reads on C-D by fundamentalist literalist Christians just go to show that, and I proudly quote here "Dad... You know that the world is full of silly kooks, don't you? Not all Christians are loony!!! Chill, man!"

So I will. Loon on!
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Old 02-16-2009, 11:11 PM
 
37,566 posts, read 25,268,086 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rifleman View Post
Since no-one will ever likely KNOW how life started, we have several options to faithfully "Believe In". One, it indeed did happen by (ever-more tested and thus provable) chance combinations of chance-formed amino acids, on Earth, which is simply one of the "gazillions X quintillions X bazillions" of extant planets out there.
Or, Two, by a one-true-specific God (Capital "G" to distinquish Her from one of the many thousands of equally believable small-"g" gods out there;

.....a "Poof", there, I'm done!" hypothesis.
This says nothing explanatory, rifleman . . . get over your love of our artificial mathematical rubric. It helps us perform virtual scientific "miracles" . . . but it explains nothing . . . just masks our ignorance in scientific jargon (chance, random, etc.). No one but you (and kooks) are suggesting that the WAY it came to be must preclude (or include) "poof" . . . a straw man dichotomy. Everything we have learned to date about HOW God did (and does) it is the best information available to us.
Quote:
A born-again ex-friend of mine told me that his God was simultaneously controlling each and every sub-atomic particle in the entire endless universe all at the same time in order to keep it all under Her control.
. . . Sigh. Is all I can say. Sigh. sigh.
Your attempt to disparage the generic concept by the association fallacy aside . . . if the source of the universal field defining the metrics of our universe is God consciousness . . . it would literally be doing that very thing . . . what do you think is doing it now?
Quote:
And to thus think that the BEST He/She could come up with in this entire endless universe, which my boring friend also stated was THE ONLY ONE WITH INTELLIGENT LIFE ON BOARD, was us? Really? This is it? Us? We meaningless, inept, bloodthirsty, endlessly greedy sinful souls is IT?
Of course not!!
Quote:
Personally, since I arrogantly know better, that we truly are just an ongoing evolutionary experiment, I'm much happier about my minor lot in life. I don't propose to have been formed in God's sorry bored image.
But you have consciousness which has all the capabilities normally ascribed to God . . . especially in our imaginations and dreams.
Quote:
Well, coos, true scientists aren't frantically afraid of finding out how things work. Christians, the fundy kind, are. If it makes TV reception better, it's good science. If it proves Evolution, it's bad science. Why can't you get this through your silly head, coos?
I understand your frustration with the few that reject evolution . . . but painting theists with the same brush is hardly fair, IMO. your son seems more reasonable than you.
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Old 02-16-2009, 11:43 PM
 
Location: Somewhere out there
9,616 posts, read 11,073,181 times
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Red face Yikes! I had NO idea it was THAT complex!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
.....get over your love of our artificial mathematical rubric.

I had one of those cubes once... couldn't figure it out.... and you? Prob'ly in a snap, eh?

IMO. your son seems more reasonable than you.
Thanks! He's got my genes plus some of the better ones of my wifey's! BTW, I'm working on his one little philosophical failing, and he'll (luckily, hopefully) get it straightened out soon enough.

(You know how impulsive and "counter" teens can be, right, Mystic? But sooner or later they come home and say "You know, dad, you WERE right all along! Sorry to have doubted you and your larger experiential base!" )

I can hardly wait, as time's a-wastin'!!!
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Old 02-17-2009, 12:40 AM
 
2,633 posts, read 4,452,555 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
OF course I do . . . we are part of nature and we have consciousness. We also have no other candidate for the universal field that defines the metrics of our reality (which you seem to have so much difficulty comprehending.)I am all ears . . . if you have an alternative for it?
There is no dificulty in comprehending here. I was just trying to figure out why you get so worked up about us atheists or scientists using the word nature instead of god. Our view on nature and your view on god are different so every past statement about it is moot.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
At least we have ample evidence that consciousness does exist as a phenomenon (6 billion +).
A very isolated one at that. Since most of this incredibly massive universe is empty, I can say that we have ample reason to be skeptical on the belief that there is some universal consciousness.
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Old 02-17-2009, 12:49 AM
 
37,566 posts, read 25,268,086 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coosjoaquin View Post
There is no dificulty in comprehending here. I was just trying to figure out why you get so worked up about us atheists or scientists using the word nature instead of god. Our view on nature and your view on god are different so every past statement about it is moot.
The ruse that there is a difference between what science studies and what God is . . . is troubling on many levels . . . but primarily because it is deceitful. The name change has nothing to do with science.
Quote:
A very isolated one at that. Since most of this incredibly massive universe is empty, I can say that we have ample reason to be skeptical on the belief that there is some universal consciousness.
You seem to know more about the presence of life and consciousness in the universe than I am aware of. With 95+% of the universe not amenable to our scientific measurements (non-baryonic) . . . it is presumptuous to make such blanket statements on the basis of what little we do know about the 4% or so. Besides . . . consciousness is not measurable . . . so it actually is more likely on a purely probabilistic basis (95+%).
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