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Old 02-23-2009, 05:24 AM
 
2,255 posts, read 4,808,192 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LogicIsYourFriend View Post
faith is not religion. Religion requires faith, but to be religious you have to believe in the supernatural and do things to affect that supernatural power (like prayer). Religion generally has myths and creation stories that go along with it as well.
While I'll agree that there are all kinds of faith and not necessarily religious, people in every walk of life and follower of any particular belief need to have a faith in it. It's the very nature of men to put faith in something, even if it's themselves. If we look at today's world problems and tensions piling up, and especially with the recent economic melt-down, we have the secular elements out there trying to encourage us to have faith that things are going to improve and get better. But then we'd have to ask, based on past failed performence and the dishonesty that characterized our world so-called financial wizards, Is an assured faith in our future possible ??? Where can we find such faith and solidly base it on what ???

It's true, that for centuries people have been taught to put their faith in religion. Church attendance is almost dead here in Europe and other parts of the tranditional USA, but while there are pockets of high attendance in some areas like the good Ol Bible Belt, it is not necessarily because people feel that the teachings of the church have the solution to today's problems. In actual fact, even as a large number of user's beliefs in this forum illustrate, most Religious leaders today surprisingly discount the Bible's teachings as simply being superstitions and myths, much like you do.

I find that today's version of religious faith is more of a form of worship rather than a mark of any possitive assurance. I've seen members of Christendom's Churches pray the "Lord's Prayer" and spout from the tree tops their faith in God's Kingdom (or government) and Jesus Christ as it's king, but they discount it by saying it is only a condition of the heart, or if it is real, it will not come in our time. They strongly claim to have ONLY a faith in Jesus Christ as their king, but in practice, I actually see them sticking their nose into politics and trying to install a Ronald Reagan or a George W Bush as their savior and king. So I have to wonder what ever happened to faith in Christ as king ???

I've seen in this forum people talking about their faith in God, and even quoting the famous "Sermon on the Mount", where Jesus explained that God feeds the birds and clothes the vegetation, and trust that God would certainly provide for his people, but still they do not rest easy until their insurance policy is paid up and they have money in their bank account. That kind of faith is only a veneer, not the kind of faith that would move mountains or allow a man to walk on water.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LogicIsYourFriend
I don't believe in the supernatural and don't do things to effect it, and don't believe in creation myth sories and so I'm not religious.
Oh but you do believe in a sort of supernatural mythology story. Let me illustrate. Your side would have us believe in something as rediculous as this.

In the state of Washington, just not far from Seattle, there was once a garbage dump, toxic waste disposal, recycling center and scrap salvage yard. On one mysterious day many years ago, there was this massive (like a Big Bang ) explosion and the resulting catastrophic aftermath was the Boeing Corporation center for aviation, research and sophisticated developement of the best aircraft products the world has ever seen. It even came complete with all of it's electrical, plumbing, machinery, and computerized infrastructure already in place. In fact, this website is it's Holy Book.
The Boeing Company

Even in the extreme Fundamentalist Atheist countries of communism, science and military might are held up as the savior of the people, while any religious instruction is made fun of and discounted as old wives fables. Your faith in your evolutionist religion is equally a veneer as the many creationists views truly are.
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Old 02-23-2009, 01:40 PM
 
4,047 posts, read 4,389,029 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluepacific View Post
While I'll agree that there are all kinds of faith and not necessarily religious, people in every walk of life and follower of any particular belief need to have a faith in it. It's the very nature of men to put faith in something, even if it's themselves. If we look at today's world problems and tensions piling up, and especially with the recent economic melt-down, we have the secular elements out there trying to encourage us to have faith that things are going to improve and get better. But then we'd have to ask, based on past failed performence and the dishonesty that characterized our world so-called financial wizards, Is an assured faith in our future possible ??? Where can we find such faith and solidly base it on what ???

It's true, that for centuries people have been taught to put their faith in religion. Church attendance is almost dead here in Europe and other parts of the tranditional USA, but while there are pockets of high attendance in some areas like the good Ol Bible Belt, it is not necessarily because people feel that the teachings of the church have the solution to today's problems. In actual fact, even as a large number of user's beliefs in this forum illustrate, most Religious leaders today surprisingly discount the Bible's teachings as simply being superstitions and myths, much like you do.

I find that today's version of religious faith is more of a form of worship rather than a mark of any possitive assurance. I've seen members of Christendom's Churches pray the "Lord's Prayer" and spout from the tree tops their faith in God's Kingdom (or government) and Jesus Christ as it's king, but they discount it by saying it is only a condition of the heart, or if it is real, it will not come in our time. They strongly claim to have ONLY a faith in Jesus Christ as their king, but in practice, I actually see them sticking their nose into politics and trying to install a Ronald Reagan or a George W Bush as their savior and king. So I have to wonder what ever happened to faith in Christ as king ???

I've seen in this forum people talking about their faith in God, and even quoting the famous "Sermon on the Mount", where Jesus explained that God feeds the birds and clothes the vegetation, and trust that God would certainly provide for his people, but still they do not rest easy until their insurance policy is paid up and they have money in their bank account. That kind of faith is only a veneer, not the kind of faith that would move mountains or allow a man to walk on water.
Thank you for supporting my point that faith is not religion itself, only a part of religion. To be religious, one must have a specific type of faith, e.g. faith in supernatural powers. Whether there are other types of faith is not the point of this thread.


Quote:
Oh but you do believe in a sort of supernatural mythology story. Let me illustrate. Your side would have us believe in something as rediculous as this.

In the state of Washington, just not far from Seattle, there was once a garbage dump, toxic waste disposal, recycling center and scrap salvage yard. On one mysterious day many years ago, there was this massive (like a Big Bang ) explosion and the resulting catastrophic aftermath was the Boeing Corporation center for aviation, research and sophisticated developement of the best aircraft products the world has ever seen. It even came complete with all of it's electrical, plumbing, machinery, and computerized infrastructure already in place. In fact, this website is it's Holy Book.
The Boeing Company
This is a ridiculous analogy, as I have observed people building structures and know what "man-made" means because I have seen man make things. I know humans exist because they are observable.

Quote:
Even in the extreme Fundamentalist Atheist countries of communism, science and military might are held up as the savior of the people, while any religious instruction is made fun of and discounted as old wives fables.
What "fundamentalist atheist countries of communism" are you talking about?
Quote:
Your faith in your evolutionist religion is equally a veneer as the many creationists views truly are.
What is "faith in evolutionist religion"? I don't have faith in evolution, it is a proven fact based on observable evidence and so doesn't require faith. Saying I know there is no creator would take faith, however, and while I assume there is none because of lack of evidence and severe "design flaws" (see other threads) I am open to any new evidence that becomes available to us. If I were strong in my convictions regardless of evidence, that would be faith, but I do not have faith because I value an evidence-based epistemology.
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Old 02-23-2009, 02:40 PM
 
2,255 posts, read 4,808,192 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LogicIsYourFriend View Post
Thank you for supporting my point that faith is not religion itself, only a part of religion. To be religious, one must have a specific type of faith, e.g. faith in supernatural powers. Whether there are other types of faith is not the point of this thread.
Well whether you acknowledge it or not, evolution was in actuality a religion started way back long before your most famous prophet Charles Darwin came on the earthly scene and it indeed is a religious type of faith one way or another. It was perfected by the Greeks in their mythology. Actually, they even borrowed it from the ancient Egyptians and Babylonians from their mythologies. But I'll get back to that later.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LogicIsYourFriend
This is a ridiculous analogy, as I have observed people building structures and know what "man-made" means because I have seen man make things. I know humans exist because they are observable.
This is funny. It is exactly the perfect analogy to illustrate what you continually try and feed everybody else. You say the exact same things in regards to other facets of the natural world and you flame most of us here for not believing your faith. LOL
You and others here have used this exact same kind of mythology when you try to get everyone else on this forum to believe about things more complex than mankind's own designed creations or inventions which are nothing more than mere replicas of an original, things like aviation, sonar, radar, etc. You would insist that a Boeing 747 has a designer, builder, etc and I would agree with you. But then you'll tell me that something a zillion times more complex than a Boeing 747, say like a hummingbird just happened to accidentally and for no other blind purpose come into various ecosystems across our planet by blind chance with no rhyme or reason to it's existance. What further fascinates me is that there are specific flowering plants that actually depend on one specific hummingbird and without them the plant would not be able to propagate itself. Somehow you'd have us believe that both of these far extreme opposite lifeforms just blindly evolved together at the same time to fit together so perfectly in such an amazing example of symbiosis.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LogicIsYourFriend
What "fundamentalist atheist countries of communism" are you talking about?
Communist China, Soviet Union, North Korea, should I go on ??? Oh yeah, and they had their own inquistion policies of convert or die by the sword, (sorry I meant rifle ) in their forced religious policies of worship of the state. Equally Dark Ages Religion, equally disgusting !!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by LogicIsYourFriend
What is "faith in evolutionist religion"? I don't have faith in evolution, it is a proven fact based on observable evidence and so doesn't require faith. Saying I know there is no creator would take faith, however, and while I assume there is none because of lack of evidence and severe "design flaws" (see other threads) I am open to any new evidence that becomes available to us. If I were strong in my convictions regardless of evidence, that would be faith, but I do not have faith because I value an evidence-based epistemology.
Oh you're religious alright. Tomorrow, I'll have more time. It's 10:00 pm here now.

Cheers
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Old 02-23-2009, 03:02 PM
 
4,047 posts, read 4,389,029 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluepacific View Post
Well whether you acknowledge it or not, evolution was in actuality a religion started way back long before your most famous prophet Charles Darwin came on the earthly scene and it indeed is a religious type of faith one way or another. It was perfected by the Greeks in their mythology. Actually, they even borrowed it from the ancient Egyptians and Babylonians from their mythologies. But I'll get back to that later.
Care to start a thread where you discuss this? Is there one already?
Quote:
This is funny. It is exactly the perfect analogy to illustrate what you continually try and feed everybody else. You say the exact same things in regards to other facets of the natural world and you flame most of us here for not believing your faith. LOL
Quote:
You and others here have used this exact same kind of mythology when you try to get everyone else on this forum to believe about things more complex than mankind's own designed creations or inventions which are nothing more than mere replicas of an original, things like aviation, sonar, radar, etc. You would insist that a Boeing 747 has a designer, builder, etc and I would agree with you. But then you'll tell me that something a zillion times more complex than a Boeing 747, say like a hummingbird just happened to accidentally and for no other blind purpose come into various ecosystems across our planet by blind chance with no rhyme or reason to it's existance. What further fascinates me is that there are specific flowering plants that actually depend on one specific hummingbird and without them the plant would not be able to propagate itself. Somehow you'd have us believe that both of these far extreme opposite lifeforms just blindly evolved together at the same time to fit together so perfectly in such an amazing example of symbiosis.
Let's not get into a discussion of intelligent design. There are many threads for that.

Quote:
Communist China, Soviet Union, North Korea, should I go on ??? Oh yeah, and they had their own inquistion policies of convert or die by the sword, (sorry I meant rifle ) in their forced religious policies of worship of the state. Equally Dark Ages Religion, equally disgusting !!!
These are not done 'in the name of atheism' but that is a different thread. It makes no difference here, it is irrelevant.


Quote:
Quote:
Oh you're religious alright. Tomorrow, I'll have more time. It's 10:00 pm here now.

Cheers
Looks like you've spent too much time diverting the thread and forgot to save time for the actual topic? I'll be awaiting your fascinating explanation as to why I am religious when I take no part in any religion.
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Old 02-23-2009, 04:15 PM
 
Location: Richland, Washington
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No. There's a difference between being religious and having faith. A religious person follows a religion, hence the term religious. Atheism/agnosticism/spiritualism aren't forms of a religion. Also, having faith doesn't make someone religious. I could have faith that tomorrow I'll wake up as a giant bumble bee, that wouldn't make me religious because I would faith that it is true. Also, the fact that everyone has a a moral code, philosophy etc. that they themselves live by doesn't make them religious. Also, a nonreligious person may be do something religiously, that doesn't make them religious. For example, someone may watch football religiously, that doesn't make them religious because they hold a worldview that requires faith. While religious people tend to have faith as a central tenet of their beliefs, that doesn't mean that if someone has faith in something then they are religious. Faith is merely an irrationally held belief. Having an irrational belief doesn't make someone religious, all it means is that they have an irrational belief about something. Also, governments like communist China follow a form of secular religion, that doesn't mean that being atheists makes them religious.
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Old 02-23-2009, 06:48 PM
 
Location: East Coast U.S.
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agnostic soldier,

"There's a difference between being religious and having faith. A religious person follows a religion, hence the term religious. Atheism/agnosticism/spiritualism aren't forms of a religion."

Says you. I started the thread by asserting the basic common definitions of faith and religion. We can't have a coherent discussion if you insist on inventing your own definitions.

"Also, having faith doesn't make someone religious. I could have faith that tomorrow I'll wake up as a giant bumble bee, that wouldn't make me religious because I would faith that it is true."

Again, for the umteenth time, I've never asserted that faith equals religion. I do continue to assert correctly and accurately that everyone (including agnostic soldier) utilizes faith in their world view. Faith is only a common ingredient and therefore, does not create a distinction between the religious and non-religious.

"Also, the fact that everyone has a a moral code, philosophy etc. that they themselves live by doesn't make them religious."

I've never asserted that it does. I am pointing out that both the religious and non-religious utilize a moral code in their world views. That makes them similar in the manner in which they hold to/approach their world view.

"Faith is merely an irrationally held belief. Having an irrational belief doesn't make someone religious, all it means is that they have an irrational belief about something."

You seem to insist on getting wrapped around the axle on the faith issue. I am merely asserting that faith is a common INGREDIENT in our world view - it's really nothing more complicated than that.

"Also, governments like communist China follow a form of secular religion, that doesn't mean that being atheists makes them religious."

Go back and read what you posted. I posited this in response to your assertion that religion is organized as opposed to free lancing atheism - or some such words to that effect. Anyway, I posted that in order to illustrate that there are many examples of organized atheistic groups in existence past and present. Again, in basic methodology, no difference between the atheists and religious here. Keep trying though, I'm sure you will eventually find a reason as to why atheists deserve special status in society...even if you have to invent one.
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Old 02-23-2009, 07:58 PM
 
Location: Santa Monica
4,708 posts, read 7,581,074 times
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tigetmax24 wrote:
"Do all the various world views require faith? Yes."

In post #57 in this thread, tigetmax24 states:
"Faith is belief, professedly without proof (i.e. without an acceptable standard of evidence). The belief in the truth of or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing."

So would it be accurate to use the word 'faith' for something like, "acceptance by the individual as *true* something that cannot be demonstrated by that individual as *fact*, such as 'my grandfather's grandfather also had a grandfather'."?

So it looks like 'faith' is a special case of 'belief'. In what sense is this so?

It is reasonable for me to 'believe' that my grandfather's grandfather also had a grandfather, though I might never be able to acquire any evidence whatsoever that he existed. But that belief is not 'faith' because it relies on the understanding that it is a widely accepted fact that human beings are only born from another female human being (not come into spontaneous existence out of the air or by means of some other kind of animal) and only after a male human being has first impregnated some female human being, and that therefore I myself must have had a grandfather, he must also have had a grandfather, and he too must also have had a grandfather.

The preceding use of the word 'belief' does not rise to the meaning of 'faith'.

There is also the element of "reliance" or "expectation" (your quoted definition mentions 'trustworthiness') in the meaning of the word 'faith'. That is, if a large rolling stone is rolling downhill toward me, and I step to the side out of its way, then I both 'believe' and 'have faith' that the stone will continue to roll downhill under the force of gravity, and not follow me to the side away from the direction that gravity is pulling it. In this case I am 'relying' on my understanding of how the force of gravity works for that case. In other words, I am relying that in the future the stone will behave subject to the law of gravity. (I don't the word 'trust' is appropriate in this case, because I'm not relating my decision to the qualities of a person.)

So, I can have 'belief' in a fact, such as a scientific fact, but on the other hand I might make a decision that pertains to circumstances in the future that is based on 'faith' (that is, an expectation) that a given 'belief' will also pertain at that future time.

That is how the words 'belief' and 'faith' differ in my understanding. 'Belief' has to do with sets of circumstances in the past, while 'faith' has to do with sets of circumstances in the future. That is, the notion of 'belief' does not properly pertain to future circumstances because no one can know the future with certainty, unless all possible physical characteristics of those future circumstances can be controlled and predicted, which is possible only in artificially constrained circumstances, such as a scientific experiment.

Religous faith is a kind of 'faith' that something other than the occurrences that would be consistent with one's reasonsble expectations *could* or *will* occur in the future because of the existence of forces that have not been (in all of previous human history), and perhaps cannot be, easily demonstrated, and that those forces are not subject to being easily demonstrated because those forces are the products of one or more wills (spirits, gods, a Supreme Being, fate, karma, God, etc.) that are independent of human wills and independent of the "laws of nature." And there certainly exist, and have existed, persons on the Earth who do, or did, not hold this kind of 'faith'.

So, I assert that the answer to the question posed by this message thread is, No.

Last edited by ParkTwain; 02-23-2009 at 09:25 PM..
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Old 02-24-2009, 04:39 AM
 
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1 Corinthians 1:19-20 - "The Amplified Bible"
Quote:
For it is written, "I will baffle and render useless and destroy the learning of the learned and the philosophy of the philosophers and the cleverness of the clever and the discernment of the discerning; I will frustrate and nullify [them] and bring [them] to nothing.

"Where is the wise man (the philosopher)? Where is the scribe (the scholar)? Where is the instigator (logician, debater) of this present time and age? Has God not shown up the nonsense and the folly of this world's wisdom?"
The above passage is actually quoting a prophecy in Isaiah 29:14 - "The Message Bible"
Quote:
"I am going to step in and shock them awake, astonish them, stand them on their ears. The wise ones who had it all figured out will be exposed as fools. The smart people who thought they knew everything will turn out to know nothing."

"Doom to you. You pretend to have the inside track. You shut god out and work behind the scenes, Plottong the fututre as if you knew everything, acting mysterious, and never showing your hand.
You have everything backward. You treat the potter (former/creator) as a lump of clay. Does a book say to it's author, "He did'nt write a word of me?" Does a meal say to the woman who cooked it, "She had nothing to do with this?"
These debates and discussions certainly are not unique to our modern day time period. The Religious Philosophy of Evolution was exactly that, a religion, and way long before any Darwin was a twinkle in his daddy's eye.

Here are some of the evolutionary religious concepts from the Greek Philosophers themselves. It would seem that the modern day evolutionist borrows from the original mythological religious concepts of these Greek Philosophers, while the creationist's side borrows from the Mythological Greek Philosophy of Immortality of the Soul, Hellfire, Trinity, etc, but reject the Greek Philosophical evolutionary mythology.

Google "Anaximander" from the 6th century B.C. You might also check out Historian Will Durant's book "The Story of Civilization" Part II page #139
Quote:
"Living organisms arose by gradual stages from the original moisture; land animals were at first fishes, and only with the drying of the earth did they acquire their present shape. Man too was once a fish; he could not at his earliest appearance have been born as now, for he would have been too helpless to secure his food, and would have been destroyed."
Google "Anaxagoras" - "Ibid page #340"
Quote:
"All organisms were originally generated out of earth, moisture, and heat, and thereafter from one another. Man has developed beyond other animals because his erect posture freed his hands for grasping things."
Google "Empedocles" - "Encyclopedia Americana", (Volume 10, page 606)
Quote:
"Empedocles (493 - 435 B.C.), for example, who has been called 'the father of the evolution idea,' believed in spontaneous generation as the explanation of the origin of life, and he believed that different forms of life were not produced simultaneously. Planr life came first and animal life only after a long series of trials, but the origin of the organisms was a very gradual process. [Here note is made of the many montrosities produced] But the unnatural products soon became extinct because they were not capable of propagation. After the extinction of these monsters other forms arose that were able to support themselves and multiply. Thus, if one cares to, one may see in the ideas of Empedocles the germ of the theory of survival of the fittest, or natural selection."
Google "Aristotle" (384 - 322 B.C.) Aristotle's "History of Animals" Viii, l,; i, l.
Quote:
"Nature proceeds little by little from things lifeless to animal life in such a way that it is impossible to determine the exact line of demarcation . . . . Thus, next after lifeless things in the upward scale comes the genus of plants . . . . . There is in plants a continuous scale of ascent towards the animal . . . . . And so throughout the animal scale there is a graduated differentiation . . . . A nail is the analogue of a claw, a hand of a crabs nipper, a feather of a fishes scale."
I find it interesting though that the Greek Philosophers actually borrowed these ideas from ancient Egypt and Babylonian mythology. So it would seem that evolution is equally a religious mythology as is creationsim (which is entirly different than the biblical Creation account)

Don't think your religious ??? Then what are you doing in here prosyletizing in a religious/philosophy forum ??? Why are'nt you down in the Science and technology section where only pure atheistic intellect matter anyway ??? Know why ??? Because you can't help yourself. Religion is a matter of passion of the heartfelt belief, not just intellect. I'm amazed that many of the hardcores post on no other subject in this forum than this evolutionary mythology. The prosyletation urge is apparently so strong that there is no control to stilfe it, and post it elsewhere. Even the Greek Stoics, who never viewed themselves as having a personal creator or god were still passionately religious, having beliefs in an immortal soul and such like. Much the same as the ancient Chinese philosophers who of confusionism, Taoism, Shintoism, Buddhism, etc also really see no personal creator in the western sense. But philosophcally religious and devout of those beliefs just the same.

So for all those who make fun of the Biblical account of creation as a mythology and a old wivies fables, look in the glass mirror at the origin of your mythological beliefs before you throw those intellectual stones.

Last edited by bluepacific; 02-24-2009 at 05:24 AM.. Reason: typo
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Old 02-24-2009, 08:01 AM
 
Location: Western Cary, NC
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I may religiously get up every morning and have my coffee, or religiously check my emails at 5:00 every morning, and yes I may look at my block of cheese every afternoon knowing I want a slice, but no I do not accept any god or faith in a religious manner. I am just the opposite and would be seen as Anti-religious.
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Old 02-24-2009, 08:28 AM
 
2,255 posts, read 4,808,192 times
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Originally Posted by cncracer View Post
I may religiously get up every morning and have my coffee, or religiously check my emails at 5:00 every morning, and yes I may look at my block of cheese every afternoon knowing I want a slice, but no I do not accept any god or faith in a religious manner. I am just the opposite and would be seen as Anti-religious.
I believe you. But you have to understand that the very origin of the evolution mythology was indeed ancient and a major religious belief of the pagan world centuries ago. I do understand that even atheists are varied and different as there are religions. I also find there are Fundamentalist extremist Atheists who are just as religiously draw to this particular section of the forum as the Right-Wing side of the "Christers" as they like to call them. They are just as devout as those Fundamentalist Christians and Islamics in their beliefs.

For some of these who say they believe only from a purely scientific standpoint, it would be easier believed if they only posted in the "Science and Technology" section, but mostly we don't really see that. We simply see the same type of religious prosyletizing on their part that they always complain about with those annoying "Christers". Seems like noses get bent out of shape when you call it both ways though.
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