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Old 02-26-2009, 06:41 AM
 
2,255 posts, read 4,803,551 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by agnostic soldier View Post
The average atheist or sipiritual person forms their own doctrine and ethical code rather than having one laid down for them.
I'll simply zero in on your last comment here. This could be understood to mean that the individual is a religion unto themselves. While they don't have or believe in any ritual, member association, etc, they are devoted to something even if something is self. I believe it could be labled as me-ism.

Although many won't like hearing or reading this, the bible actually acknowledges many philosophical concepts, even pursuits as something religious. In fact it says that an individual can actually view their own belly (stomach) as a god. Having come from the United States, it could well be said that this would be the religion of some of the obese, who are extremely devout to their god.
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Old 02-26-2009, 08:52 AM
 
Location: Richland, Washington
4,072 posts, read 4,973,284 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluepacific View Post
I'll simply zero in on your last comment here. This could be understood to mean that the individual is a religion unto themselves. While they don't have or believe in any ritual, member association, etc, they are devoted to something even if something is self. I believe it could be labled as me-ism.

Although many won't like hearing or reading this, the bible actually acknowledges many philosophical concepts, even pursuits as something religious. In fact it says that an individual can actually view their own belly (stomach) as a god. Having come from the United States, it could well be said that this would be the religion of some of the obese, who are extremely devout to their god.
I can see what you're saying in the sense that most people have something in life in which they pursue with devotion, even if it isn't a certain worldview, although I would disagree that this would make someone religious. For example, if the most important thing in life for them in life is eating, it seems that if someone says that it is god then it is more of a metaphor since that person may not think of their stomach as something to worship. Another example, it seems would be that if the most important thing is someone's relationships so they pursue these relationships very devoutly since it is what is most important to them, they may not necessarily do so in religious sort of way. While they may do this behavior religiously(in the sense that it is pathological so it is something they do so devoutly), it may not be that this makes them religious about it since religion tends to imply that it is something they worship and that something they do with devotion may not be something they worship or have a doctrine that they abide by that makes them do this behavior.
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Old 02-26-2009, 06:06 PM
 
Location: East Coast U.S.
1,513 posts, read 1,399,112 times
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agnostic soldier,

"I would have disagree that having a worldview makes someone religious. While faith is an ingrediant of religion, that doesn't mean that having faith makes someone religious. A religious person follows some sort of of religion(ie Christianity, Wicca, Islam etc.) While nonreligious people may have faith in their worldview, this doesn't necessarily make them religious."

Again, I'm not asserting that faith equals religion. I have added emphasis to the faith ingredient only because most people tend to see faith as a primary distinction between the religious and non-religious.

Please understand that I acknowledge a distinction between the religious and non-religious. My purpose here is to point out and discuss the similarities in the way people APPROACH and determine to adopt their various world views.

"While both religious and nonreligious people hold ethical codes and philosophies, the difference between a religious person and nonreligious person is that a religious person has an ethical code, doctrine etc. that is laid down for them. While atheist governments like Communist China are religious in the way they do things, they are more organized groups which have put forth a doctrine and ethical code which they are supposed to follow. Most people who don't follow a religion don't do this though. The average atheist or sipiritual person forms their own doctrine and ethical code rather than having one laid down for them."

Now we're getting somewhere.

I understand your point. Question:

What would be the difference between the atheist that accepts certain elements of the ten commandments/sermon on the mount and the religious person that accepts certain elements of the ten commandments/sermon on the mount? Would not both be accepting in their world views doctrines and codes that have been "laid down?"
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Old 02-26-2009, 06:53 PM
 
Location: Rivendell
1,387 posts, read 2,114,288 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tigetmax24 View Post

What would be the difference between the atheist that accepts certain elements of the ten commandments/sermon on the mount and the religious person that accepts certain elements of the ten commandments/sermon on the mount? Would not both be accepting in their world views doctrines and codes that have been "laid down?"
If we go with the "certain elements" of the ten commandments that do not involve worship, then we could say that these codes are part of most successful societies. The difference would be the atheist sees this as part of a successful society, and the christian sees it as laws from god. I don't think the atheist would accept them as being "laid down". These doctrines and codes have been around as long as man has, well before the abrahamic religions. JMHO
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Old 02-26-2009, 07:03 PM
 
Location: East Coast U.S.
1,513 posts, read 1,399,112 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sanspeur View Post
So let me ask you tigetmax, what religion doctrine do you follow? By the way I am atheist, follow no doctrine and do not accept your opinion that non belief is in any way a religion, as a matter of fact I believe many atheists are anti religious.


I haven't heard from you since post #67.

If you're going to keep disappearing when things get too hot, what good will it do for me to respond? Am I wasting my time?

Nevertheless, here is my answer:

While it has nothing to do with this discussion, I happen to be a Christ follower. I had already pretty much deduced that you were either agnostic or atheist.

You say that you follow no doctrine - Fine. Would you then deny that you have certain morals/values that you adhere to that would also correspond with certain parts of some prominently recognized religious doctrines?

Do you agree that non-belief in a deity is the same as choosing to believe that there is no deity. If not, why not?

I understand and acknowledge the DISTINCTION between the religious and non-religious. I am not now nor have I ever meant to assert that the religious are exactly the same as the non-religious - only that both use the same methodology in order to arrive at opposite conclusions.
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Old 02-26-2009, 07:14 PM
 
Location: Richland, Washington
4,072 posts, read 4,973,284 times
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tigetmax24, I think the main difference between an atheist and religious person that follows the commandments(excluding ones that are about worshipping the deity) like don't kill, don't steal etc. is that the atheist considers these morals to be natural in origin while a religious person considers them to be divine in origin.
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Old 02-26-2009, 07:24 PM
 
4,047 posts, read 4,381,371 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tigetmax24 View Post
I understand and acknowledge the DISTINCTION between the religious and non-religious. I am not now nor have I ever meant to assert that the religious are exactly the same as the non-religious - only that both use the same methodology in order to arrive at opposite conclusions.
In the OP, you posited that all people are religious. Now you admit there are non-religious people. Is the debate now settled since you agree that not all people are religious?
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Old 02-26-2009, 09:04 PM
 
Location: Victoria, BC.
30,042 posts, read 30,739,325 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tigetmax24 View Post

I haven't heard from you since post #67.

If you're going to keep disappearing when things get too hot, what good will it do for me to respond? Am I wasting my time?

Nevertheless, here is my answer:

While it has nothing to do with this discussion, I happen to be a Christ follower. I had already pretty much deduced that you were either agnostic or atheist.

You say that you follow no doctrine - Fine. Would you then deny that you have certain morals/values that you adhere to that would also correspond with certain parts of some prominently recognized religious doctrines?

Do you agree that non-belief in a deity is the same as choosing to believe that there is no deity. If not, why not?

I understand and acknowledge the DISTINCTION between the religious and non-religious. I am not now nor have I ever meant to assert that the religious are exactly the same as the non-religious - only that both use the same methodology in order to arrive at opposite conclusions.
When you make assumptions you make an ass of yourself....I am not here for your satisfaction. As a matter of fact I have had two ambulance rides to emergency for a still undiagnosed abdominal problem since the post you mention, and have been on powerful painkillers since...I'm so sorry to inconvenience you.....Not. I have had my final say on the thread, and if you are not happy with my opinion on the matter, then that is your problem, not mine.
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Old 02-26-2009, 09:39 PM
 
54 posts, read 448,220 times
Reputation: 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by sanspeur View Post
When you make assumptions you make an ass of yourself....I am not here for your satisfaction. As a matter of fact I have had two ambulance rides to emergency for a still undiagnosed abdominal problem since the post you mention, and have been on powerful painkillers since...I'm so sorry to inconvenience you.....Not. I have had my final say on the thread, and if you are not happy with my opinion on the matter, then that is your problem, not mine.
Im sorry I probably missed alot of stuff , but had to ask this question of this statement.
Before you took those pills , Did you have faith (believe) that they would subside the pain? Or more to the point , why did you call the ambulance? And why would you keep going back to doctors that havent given you an awnser.
I guess maybe because you have faith in modern medicine?
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Old 02-26-2009, 10:24 PM
 
Location: Richland, Washington
4,072 posts, read 4,973,284 times
Reputation: 2479
Quote:
Originally Posted by mktavish View Post
Im sorry I probably missed alot of stuff , but had to ask this question of this statement.
Before you took those pills , Did you have faith (believe) that they would subside the pain? Or more to the point , why did you call the ambulance? And why would you keep going back to doctors that havent given you an awnser.
I guess maybe because you have faith in modern medicine?
Faith is believing in something there is no evidence for. It has been empirically that modern medicine actually works and it is statistically plausible that the ambulance will come and doctors have had years of special training in their feild.
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