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Old 02-19-2009, 08:18 PM
 
Location: East Coast U.S.
1,513 posts, read 1,401,518 times
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[quote=agnostic soldier;7540125]
Quote:

Individual atheists hold doctrines, philosophy and moral codes, although atheism doesn't offer any of those things. You don't seem to know what atheism actually is. Most atheists adopt the weak atheist position which says that there is no compelling evidence that proves there is a god so there's no reason to believe it exists. It takes no faith to say that you don't believe in something which there is no evidence for. It doesn't require faith to say that there are no invisible pink elephants in the back of your car if there is no evidence that proves they exist, likewise it does not require faith to say that it is irrational to postulate that god exists when there is no evidence for its existence.
Faith. Evidence. Logic. Reason.

We use these to formulate decisions such as whether or not to believe in invisible pink elephants.

Some accept the evidence for God's existence - evidence that you apparently choose not to recognize as evidence - others choose to accept what they see as evidence for God's non-existence.

You have not provided any reason for me or anyone else to conclude that the atheist position is superior or any more rational than any other world view. Like you, anyone could choose not to accept your "evidence" and postulate your atheist position as irrational.

Face it, we're all in the same boat when it comes to postulating a world view.
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Old 02-19-2009, 08:56 PM
 
Location: Richland, Washington
4,078 posts, read 4,984,473 times
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[quote=tigetmax24;7540809]
Quote:
Originally Posted by agnostic soldier View Post

Faith. Evidence. Logic. Reason.

We use these to formulate decisions such as whether or not to believe in invisible pink elephants.

Some accept the evidence for God's existence - evidence that you apparently choose not to recognize as evidence - others choose to accept what they see as evidence for God's non-existence.

You have not provided any reason for me or anyone else to conclude that the atheist position is superior or any more rational than any other world view. Like you, anyone could choose not to accept your "evidence" and postulate your atheist position as irrational.

Face it, we're all in the same boat when it comes to postulating a world view.
There is no evidence that proves the existence of a god. You can't rationally or empirically prove a divinity exists. What evidence is there for a god, not personal experience, testimonials or emotion, evidence comes from scientific testing. The fact is that there is no evidence for the existence of anything other than the material world. Believing that a god exists requires faith because there's no empirical evidence that there is a god, atheism doesn't require faith because believers are incapable of giving any valid evidence that proves their god exists. Since there is no evidence that proves god exists, there's no reason to believe it does.
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Old 02-19-2009, 09:27 PM
 
Location: East Coast U.S.
1,513 posts, read 1,401,518 times
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[quote=agnostic soldier;7541364]
Quote:
Originally Posted by tigetmax24 View Post

There is no evidence that proves the existence of a god. You can't rationally or empirically prove a divinity exists. What evidence is there for a god, not personal experience, testimonials or emotion, evidence comes from scientific testing. The fact is that there is no evidence for the existence of anything other than the material world. Believing that a god exists requires faith because there's no empirical evidence that there is a god, atheism doesn't require faith because believers are incapable of giving any valid evidence that proves their god exists. Since there is no evidence that proves god exists, there's no reason to believe it does.
We're in danger of getting off topic here. Personally, I believe that all the available evidence + reason and logic, leads inescapably to the obvious conclusion of the existence of a transcendent eternal being. If you wish, we could debate this on another thread.

Anyway, your making my point by the statement that nothing exists beyond the material world. You're again making a negative assertion that cannot be proved. You say that I cannot prove that God exists. That puts us in the same boat - does it not? This means that we would both be compelled to hold our particular world views according to faith - faith that takes us beyond what we are able to empirically know.

I hope that you address my point this time so that we can avoid going in circles.
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Old 02-19-2009, 10:20 PM
 
598 posts, read 813,177 times
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Using Bible as a evidence for God is circular logic.

Because, as you know, Bible is all about God. That's like using superman book as evidence for superman, totally circular logic.
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Old 02-19-2009, 10:55 PM
 
Location: Richland, Washington
4,078 posts, read 4,984,473 times
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[quote=tigetmax24;7541895]
Quote:
Originally Posted by agnostic soldier View Post

We're in danger of getting off topic here. Personally, I believe that all the available evidence + reason and logic, leads inescapably to the obvious conclusion of the existence of a transcendent eternal being. If you wish, we could debate this on another thread.

Anyway, your making my point by the statement that nothing exists beyond the material world. You're again making a negative assertion that cannot be proved. You say that I cannot prove that God exists. That puts us in the same boat - does it not? This means that we would both be compelled to hold our particular world views according to faith - faith that takes us beyond what we are able to empirically know.

I hope that you address my point this time so that we can avoid going in circles.
It's not that it is impossible that there is something else other than the natural world, it's that you can't emipirically test to gain scientific evidence, since there's no empirical evidence that substantiates the claim that there is something supernatural so it is irrational to postulate that there is a god. As far as having faith makes someone religious, this is not so since faith doesn't equal religion. While faith is a tenet of religion, not everyone who has faith is religious. Religion gives a set of rules, morals, purpose, doctrine and philosophy which all of its adherents are supposed to abide by. This is not so for atheism since even if atheism requires faith, it is merely the lack of belief in gods. It is up to the individual atheist to form his/her own moral code etc. since unlike religion which prescribes how followers should think and act, atheism has the individual decide how to think, act and form their own lifestyle. The same is for spiritual people. While they have faith that something exists beyond the material world, they also don't have a set list of beliefs and morals which they are suppose to follow, they form their own beliefs, moral precepts and meaning in life.
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Old 02-20-2009, 06:48 AM
 
Location: East Coast U.S.
1,513 posts, read 1,401,518 times
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[quote=agnostic soldier;7543051][quote=tigetmax24;7541895]

Quote:
Originally Posted by agnostic soldier View Post
It's not that it is impossible that there is something else other than the natural world, it's that you can't emipirically test to gain scientific evidence, since there's no empirical evidence that substantiates the claim that there is something supernatural so it is irrational to postulate that there is a god.

You are attempting to make a nonsense statement. Basically, you're trying to assert that existence of the supernatural is impossible and at the same time acknowledge that such an assertion cannot be proved.

Look, I'm just going by the rules that you've been laying down and agreeing by saying we are both in the same boat when it comes to our uses of faith, rationality, reason, logic in order to arrive at polar opposite world views.

We're getting circular on this issue because you refuse to see the factual circumstances here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by agnostic soldier View Post
As far as having faith makes someone religious, this is not so since faith doesn't equal religion.


Go back and read my OP. I've never asserted that faith equals religion.


Quote:
Originally Posted by agnostic soldier View Post
Religion gives a set of rules, morals, purpose, doctrine and philosophy which all of its adherents are supposed to abide by. This is not so for atheism since even if atheism requires faith, it is merely the lack of belief in gods. It is up to the individual atheist to form his/her own moral code etc. since unlike religion which prescribes how followers should think and act, atheism has the individual decide how to think, act and form their own lifestyle. The same is for spiritual people. While they have faith that something exists beyond the material world, they also don't have a set list of beliefs and morals which they are suppose to follow, they form their own beliefs, moral precepts and meaning in life.


Basically, you're saying that atheism is not organized around an established set of rules and that each atheist is therefore able to freelance.

To an extent, I agree. This assertion depends upon which group of atheists we are talking about. There have been some very well organized groups holding to basic atheistic guidelines ie., Communist China, the former USSR, modern day North Korea to name a few.

Also, as already pointed out in this thread, it is not possible to hold to an amoral position. The atheist holds to at least some sort of code of what they determine to be moral and hold to beliefs that require faith - just like everyone else with a world view.

Finally, I don't claim to be an expert on all world religions but I do not agree with the picture you paint of all religious people being locked into their beliefs to the extent that they basically become automatons. This alone would make for a whole separate discussion.
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Old 02-20-2009, 06:58 AM
 
Location: East Coast U.S.
1,513 posts, read 1,401,518 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bud235 View Post
Using Bible as a evidence for God is circular logic.

Because, as you know, Bible is all about God. That's like using superman book as evidence for superman, totally circular logic.


I sense that responding to you is probably going to be an exercise in futility.

Anyway:

Has anyone besides you in this entire thread mentioned the Bible?

I have never asserted that anyone should believe the Bible simply because of what is in the Bible.

Faith. Evidence. Logic. Rationality. Reason.
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Old 02-21-2009, 07:10 PM
 
4,047 posts, read 4,392,135 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tigetmax24 View Post
Everyone has a world view.

All world views require faith.

Can it then be fairly stated that everyone is, at least in the very basic definition, religious?
faith is not religion. Religion requires faith, but to be religious you have to believe in the supernatural and do things to affect that supernatural power (like prayer). Religion generally has myths and creation stories that go along with it as well.

I don't believe in the supernatural and don't do things to affect it, nor do I believe creation story myths, so I am not religious.
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Old 02-21-2009, 08:01 PM
 
Location: East Coast U.S.
1,513 posts, read 1,401,518 times
Reputation: 106
Quote:
Originally Posted by LogicIsYourFriend View Post
faith is not religion. Religion requires faith, but to be religious you have to believe in the supernatural and do things to affect that supernatural power (like prayer). Religion generally has myths and creation stories that go along with it as well.

I don't believe in the supernatural and don't do things to affect it, nor do I believe creation story myths, so I am not religious.


If your going to post here, how about keeping up with the thread. The points you raise here have already been addressed.

If you disagree with the counters to your assertions, please point them out and I will be all too happy to respond.
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Old 02-23-2009, 04:01 AM
 
4,047 posts, read 4,392,135 times
Reputation: 1321
Quote:
Originally Posted by tigetmax24 View Post

If your going to post here, how about keeping up with the thread. The points you raise here have already been addressed.

If you disagree with the counters to your assertions, please point them out and I will be all too happy to respond.
I don't see where you even address this point, that faith is not religion. Even if your assertion is true that all people have faith in their worldviews, it does not mean that all people are religious.

Last edited by LogicIsYourFriend; 02-23-2009 at 04:13 AM..
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