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Old 02-18-2009, 12:31 AM
 
4,047 posts, read 4,392,135 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kdbrich View Post
There is a difference between justice and assault.
How is it justice to kill 3000 people who were in a crowd that worshiped a golden calf, while allowing Aaron, who directed the construction of the calf, to continue his priesthood as one of the few worthy enough to perform the holiest sacrifices and rituals?
Quote:
Originally Posted by kdbrich View Post
Do you believe that we should have an armed police force?

Sometimes one must use violence to protect the innocent.
When God sent bears to maul 42 children because they mocked Elisha for baldness, was that protecting the innocent?
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Old 02-18-2009, 03:27 AM
 
7,654 posts, read 9,704,662 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LogicIsYourFriend View Post
How is it justice to kill 3000 people who were in a crowd that worshiped a golden calf, while allowing Aaron, who directed the construction of the calf, to continue his priesthood as one of the few worthy enough to perform the holiest sacrifices and rituals?

When God sent bears to maul 42 children because they mocked Elisha for baldness, was that protecting the innocent?
First, it would be a mistake on your part if you believe that the 3,000 were but innocent bystanders. Moses had already asked those who were on God's side to come over to Him. Now understand, that the 3,000 had just saw the power of God, because they had walked through the Red Sea, and they saw the power of God, and the destruction of the Egyptian army. Yet, even with that, they still bowed down to the Golden Calf and rejected the God of Israel. God knew that the 3,000 were in open rebellion against Him. And these 3,000 obviously refused to join ranks with Moses. And for that reason, they were put to death. Even Aron who was guilty, obviously joined ranks with Moses when he returned. It was those who continued to rebel that were put to death.

It would also be a mistake to believe that the 42 youths were but children. Here again, a poor translation allows this thought to be believed. Refering once again to the Orginal text. The actual word used is Neurim Qetannim, which can be (young lads, or young men). The Wording actully indicates that the age of those involved are more like 12 years to 30. And it was most likely a much bigger mob then 42. The fact was, many of God's prophets had been murdered by such mobs. And unless God got involved, numerous more would of been killed. God did not allow the bears to maul those 42 only because of Elisha baldness, he allow that to happen, because there must of been the real chance of danger for Elisha.
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Old 02-18-2009, 09:11 AM
 
Location: PA
2,616 posts, read 3,934,120 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by b. frank View Post
Why would you compare The Bible to other writings like The Iliad?
How could the "errors" in one possibly have any bearing on the other?

Practice makes permanent. Only perfect practice makes perfect. And I say you appear to have found perfection by using an imperfect practice. Sadly, the effects are permanent.
I have refered to the Illyad by Homer, because if compare old manuscripts to other old manuscripts, the Bible is virtually error free and Homers Illyad might as well be refered to as a rewrite of the book, because it contains practically nothing of the original authors content. But, sadly we do not see people criticizing secular works for there quality, only the bible. The root of this criticizm has more to do with the implications of the content rather than the content in and of itself.

God is perfect. The bible is an excellent work and the "errors" that are often refered to are refutable. The bible is the best revelation of who God is.
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Old 02-18-2009, 09:30 AM
 
2,955 posts, read 6,646,470 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikk View Post
I have refered to the Illyad by Homer, because if compare old manuscripts to other old manuscripts, the Bible is virtually error free and Homers Illyad might as well be refered to as a rewrite of the book, because it contains practically nothing of the original authors content. But, sadly we do not see people criticizing secular works for there quality, only the bible. The root of this criticizm has more to do with the implications of the content rather than the content in and of itself.
I understand what you are saying - but I still do not grasp the significance.
Why would somebody bother to "criticize" the historical accuracy of a work of fiction? By definition: Fiction is NOT historically accurate.
I guess you are arguning against the Bible-deniers who use the argument that it can't be true because of all the rewrites, etc.? That makes some sense, I guess. I can't really get my head around that debate though because I find the Bible unbelievable even if it is 100% confirmed that the texts we have today read the same as they did millenia ago.

Quote:
God is perfect. The bible is an excellent work and the "errors" that are often refered to are refutable. The bible is the best revelation of who God is.
I think that you believed that even before your intensive studies - that's why I said you used an imperfect practice in your endeavor to prove the Bible to be true. You started your search with a conclusion already in your mind.
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Old 02-18-2009, 10:44 AM
 
11,145 posts, read 13,595,032 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DFW123 View Post
How can "won't" contradict "will not"?
"want" - consistently mispelled - is not the contraction (I didn't write contradiction) for "will not".

The only reason I bring it up is that it just reveals further that those who did not develop the skills of analytical thought through a thorough education (university or self-taught) tend to adhere to these dogma without really intellectually processing the contradictions and illogic of it all.

Simply because an old city existed doesn't mean everything written about it was true. Charles Dickens wrote some great prose based in London, but it was still fiction, even though London certainly exists.

So again - Someone please explain how non-believers (unbelievers is not a word) can begin believing if they can't understand what they believe until after they believe it.

It's a serious question and I would like a serious answer. Thank you.
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Old 02-18-2009, 11:12 AM
 
Location: Victoria, BC.
30,056 posts, read 30,829,960 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Campbell34 View Post
First, it would be a mistake on your part if you believe that the 3,000 were but innocent bystanders. Moses had already asked those who were on God's side to come over to Him. Now understand, that the 3,000 had just saw the power of God, because they had walked through the Red Sea, and they saw the power of God, and the destruction of the Egyptian army. Yet, even with that, they still bowed down to the Golden Calf and rejected the God of Israel. God knew that the 3,000 were in open rebellion against Him. And these 3,000 obviously refused to join ranks with Moses. And for that reason, they were put to death. Even Aron who was guilty, obviously joined ranks with Moses when he returned. It was those who continued to rebel that were put to death.

It would also be a mistake to believe that the 42 youths were but children. Here again, a poor translation allows this thought to be believed. Refering once again to the Orginal text. The actual word used is Neurim Qetannim, which can be (young lads, or young men). The Wording actully indicates that the age of those involved are more like 12 years to 30. And it was most likely a much bigger mob then 42. The fact was, many of God's prophets had been murdered by such mobs. And unless God got involved, numerous more would of been killed. God did not allow the bears to maul those 42 only because of Elisha baldness, he allow that to happen, because there must of been the real chance of danger for Elisha.
The 3000 were guilty of what? Not believing in a god with such a huge ego the penalty is death for disbelief? What kind of a crime is that? Today, by your standards would this god of yours be justified to kill all who do not believe as you do?....Indefensible!

Who cares how old the people were that were killed by the bear, and how do you know the details of the story, or did you just make them up in order to defend gods murders?
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Old 02-18-2009, 11:15 AM
 
4,669 posts, read 3,928,005 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LogicIsYourFriend View Post
How is it justice to kill 3000 people who were in a crowd that worshiped a golden calf, while allowing Aaron, who directed the construction of the calf, to continue his priesthood as one of the few worthy enough to perform the holiest sacrifices and rituals?
We all deserve to die...the question is when.

These people were delivered from Egypt miraculously. They still chose to rebel.

Why did he spare Aaron? I don't know. Maybe he had plans for Aaron that he needed to keep him around.
Quote:
When God sent bears to maul 42 children because they mocked Elisha for baldness, was that protecting the innocent?
Again...they deserved to die...only question is when. They were mocking a prophet of God. He takes that seriously.
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Old 02-18-2009, 11:24 AM
 
Location: Victoria, BC.
30,056 posts, read 30,829,960 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kdbrich View Post
We all deserve to die...the question is when.

These people were delivered from Egypt miraculously. They still chose to rebel.

Why did he spare Aaron? I don't know. Maybe he had plans for Aaron that he needed to keep him around.


Again...they deserved to die...only question is when. They were mocking a prophet of God. He takes that seriously.
So, when I mock god, I deserve to die?...Why does your god have such a big ego? You guys are defending the indefensible.
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Old 02-18-2009, 12:28 PM
 
4,669 posts, read 3,928,005 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sanspeur View Post
So, when I mock god, I deserve to die?...Why does your god have such a big ego? You guys are defending the indefensible.

Yes. You do deserve to die, just as I do. None of us are righteous before God. He made us, he can decide when we die.

Are you without blame? Have you never told a lie? Stolen anything? Used God's name in vain? Lusted after someone else? Have you always honored your parents?

Every one of us have broken those commandments. We all deserve death. He's told us what to do and we don't do it.

The question is if you want to pay that penalty yourself or let Christ do it for you.
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Old 02-18-2009, 12:52 PM
 
4,047 posts, read 4,392,135 times
Reputation: 1321
Quote:
Originally Posted by kdbrich View Post
Yes. You do deserve to die, just as I do. None of us are righteous before God. He made us, he can decide when we die.

Are you without blame? Have you never told a lie? Stolen anything? Used God's name in vain? Lusted after someone else? Have you always honored your parents?

Every one of us have broken those commandments. We all deserve death. He's told us what to do and we don't do it.

The question is if you want to pay that penalty yourself or let Christ do it for you.
It's no better than living in North Korea, living a life of groveling and worshiping Kim Jong Il's dead father to believe that your creator has every right to kill you as he pleases, simply because you prefer a different leader, or because you were laughing at an old guy's bald head, or you were gathering firewood on Sunday, or you pulled out when having sex with your dead brother's wife, or felt the sexual urges God made so strong in us, or disliked your a-hole parents.

You feel perfectly comfortable with God denying freedom of religion, freedom of speech, freedom of opinion, freedom from socialism, freedom to work on any day of the week, freedom from killing animals, freedom of choice, freedom of thought. You accept this because it's what you believe you have to do. I'm glad I can see through that belief.
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