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Old 02-17-2009, 05:08 PM
 
Location: Charlotte, NC (in my mind)
7,946 posts, read 14,599,851 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikk View Post
If you find Christians who are not understanding with other things as you talk to them or they appear to be hostile towards Homosexuals, then these are not Christians. The bible says that Love covers a multitude of sin. Not so the person can keep sinning, but so they can find forgiveness and healing. Remember that Jesus said the two greatest commandments are these; love the lord your God with all your heart and soul and mind and the seccond is like unto this, love your neighbor as yourself. So Christ said that upon these two COMMANDMENTS to love hung all of the law and of the prophetic (Basically all of the bible rests on these two things). So, as Christians we are commanded to love.
As I said before, many people, especially men in the rural South where I live find homosexuality so disgusting they elevate it into something much bigger than it is. Guys around here are expected to show a hightened level of masculinity. I couldn't mention I was struggling with it without them thinking I was trying to come on to them. Mentioning this to my Christian friends would be the end of our friendship. Its not right that its that way, but its the way it is around here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by denverian View Post
This knowledge that on the one hand, you're gay and you know you did nothing to cause it, and on the other hand, your family, friends, and church telling you this is "wicked sin"? It creates a horrible cognative dissonance that leads to self hatred, misery, and unfortunately a higher than average suicide rate.
Far worse is attending a church like I attended growing up where the doctrine was that if one was having homosexual desires, they had already been given over to a depraved mind (Romans 1) and was beyond hope. I remember one sermon where our preacher said that homosexuality is worse than murder, and is the deepest depths of satanic perversion. Another time somebody in the congregation shouted, "we should round up all the child molesters and homosexuals and put them in gas chambers!". Now that is pure hate. I am currently and have been for the past 10 months going to a different church, though still a very conservative one.


As I said before, most of the posters in this thread have been very respectful. As a Christian, having heard much worse all my life, I honestly don't have a problem with somebody believing it is sinful as long as they keep it in perspective. I am still somewhat unsure on the issue.

As for the sinfulness of homosexuality, the most popular Leviticus 18:22 should not be used in my opinion to condemn gays because its just a few verses over from verses that condemn people who wear multi-fabric garments and many other laws which Christians don't consider binding. The story of Sodom and Gamorrah was describing homosexual gang rape and group orgies, which is a far cry from a loving, monogamous homosexual relationship. That leaves us with Romans 1 and 1 Corinthinas 6:9-10 dealing with the subject. Question is, what was the original intent of the author? What does the original Greek say? And how are we to interpret them? Are they addressing loving, comitted same sex relationships or merely the promiscuous scene that artsyguy was talking about?

 
Old 02-17-2009, 05:14 PM
 
Location: Long Island,New York
8,163 posts, read 12,817,106 times
Reputation: 2474
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vastinez View Post
Oh yes they are. I don't know what bible you have been reading but the one i read clearly shows that sins are equal and that the only one that isn't is blasphemy.

So,you believe that someone commiting a murder and someone in a mongamous gay relationship are both equal sins? Mind you I don't believe being gay is a sin.
 
Old 02-17-2009, 05:17 PM
 
Location: Gaston, North Carolina
4,213 posts, read 4,899,792 times
Reputation: 624
God framed marriage as only between a man and a woman. Any sexual relationship outside of this framework, according to scripture, is wrong and we must all flee from sexual sin whether it be porn, a lustful eye, flirting, homosexuality, fornication, adultry, whatever it may be. Sexual sin is powerful and strong to resist.
 
Old 02-17-2009, 05:31 PM
 
Location: Nashville, Tn
7,916 posts, read 16,397,088 times
Reputation: 5442
bchris02,
I'm alot older than you and I can remember back in some high school class I was taking (this is in the mid-sixties) when our teacher told us about the horrible disease of homosexuality and how depraved and sick these people were. I believed every word of it and I'm sure my classmates did too because we didn't know anything about it and in those days there was no such thing as being openly gay. It wasn't until many years later when I moved to a big city and came into contact with gay coworkers and eventually became friends with a lesbian who got me interested in photography that I realized that gay people aren't the monsters I was told they were. I actually knew that woman for years before she confided in me that she was gay. The point I'm trying to make is that the public perception of homosexuality is changing and you have the unfortunate luck to live in an area in which it hasn't changed at all. I mentioned on an earlier post that it might be a good idea to relocate to a more progressive larger city and try to establish a new life. I honestly think it would be a very positive thing to do and it's not that difficult to do. You need to find some supportive people in your everyday life and that's the only way to do it. That doesn't mean severing ties with family and friends, it means adding new friends that are more understanding of your situation.
 
Old 02-17-2009, 05:37 PM
 
Location: Long Island,New York
8,163 posts, read 12,817,106 times
Reputation: 2474
Quote:
Originally Posted by RobinD69 View Post
God framed marriage as only between a man and a woman. Any sexual relationship outside of this framework, according to scripture, is wrong and we must all flee from sexual sin whether it be porn, a lustful eye, flirting, homosexuality, fornication, adultry, whatever it may be. Sexual sin is powerful and strong to resist.
Sorry but I can't buy into this.I was raised to like everyone equally and if they hurt me then that person might not be in my own good graces but saying that it is a sin to be with the same sex is like a prehistoric view. Also g-d framed marriage,not true! Someone wrote it in a book and said it was the word of g-d.I personally am not attracted to the same sex but if the people are good to each other and others as well,what they do behind closed doors is their business.Now lets say that you had 2 women in their 80's who are lesbians that have no desire to have sex but just kiss as their form of affection,is it that bad? At least they're not killing or raping people!Not a crime even though not pleasant to watch.
 
Old 02-17-2009, 05:40 PM
 
Location: Long Island,New York
8,163 posts, read 12,817,106 times
Reputation: 2474
Quote:
Originally Posted by MontanaGuy View Post
bchris02,
I'm alot older than you and I can remember back in some high school class I was taking (this is in the mid-sixties) when our teacher told us about the horrible disease of homosexuality and how depraved and sick these people were. I believed every word of it and I'm sure my classmates did too because we didn't know anything about it and in those days there was no such thing as being openly gay. It wasn't until many years later when I moved to a big city and came into contact with gay coworkers and eventually became friends with a lesbian who got me interested in photography that I realized that gay people aren't the monsters I was told they were. I actually knew that woman for years before she confided in me that she was gay. The point I'm trying to make is that the public perception of homosexuality is changing and you have the unfortunate luck to live in an area in which it hasn't changed at all. I mentioned on an earlier post that it might be a good idea to relocate to a more progressive larger city and try to establish a new life. I honestly think it would be a very positive thing to do and it's not that difficult to do. You need to find some supportive people in your everyday life and that's the only way to do it. That doesn't mean severing ties with family and friends, it means adding new friends that are more understanding of your situation.
I like your point! It makes me think about the oldtimers that still think the're fighting the civil war while most others that are sane have moved on.
 
Old 02-17-2009, 06:48 PM
 
2,955 posts, read 6,628,278 times
Reputation: 1924
Quote:
Originally Posted by MontanaGuy View Post
You need to find some supportive people in your everyday life and that's the only way to do it. That doesn't mean severing ties with family and friends, it means adding new friends that are more understanding of your situation.
bchris,
I totally agree with Montana here. And I am only mentioning it because it brings up the notion of the dreaded DOUBLE LIFE.
I am an honest person and I only feel good about telling the truth. But, in some ways, I think that hiding things can be beneficial. Here's an example from my own past:
Although it is nothing like yours sounds, I also have a Christian upbringing. My family was/is very active in a certain, albeit liberal, semi-Southern, Assembly of God, Pentecostal church. I know the basics of what you are facing even though I experienced a fairly metropolitan version of it.
As a child, I swore a lot from the age of about 8. No sentence went without a swear. Me and all my friends were fascinated and we all swore like Eddie Murphy. It became deeply ingrained in my speech. Yet, I easily switched gears when I was at home and never, ever swore in front of my family because it was a pretty big sin. A definite no-no. I felt that I had a double life. My mother would have been shocked to hear me talk!
Now - let's fast forward. I said that my upbringing was "liberal" - that means that my parents were loving (I think that the definition has been a bit screwed by ther politics of today). When I doubted their religion pretty young, I was vocal about it. My family listened to me and did not punish or threaten me but I was still going to church with them and they didn't budge an inch about what was the truth.
Fast forward again - to the future - my mother's deathbed. She and I have never really hashed out our differences over religion and such since I was a teenager. We kind of buried that fight. But she is as Christian as ever and I wonder about that potential moment where she asks me: "Will I see you in heaven? Will you be there?"
I might say yes. And furthermore, I might believe it at that moment.
Anyway, the whole point of all of this is that I think it is possible for you to live your regular life as a Christian gay man, and be a different person in front of your family when necessary.
I think you already know that your family is not God. There's no reason that you can't or shouldn't serve both.
 
Old 02-17-2009, 08:13 PM
 
Location: Socialist Republik of Amerika
6,212 posts, read 11,451,774 times
Reputation: 1101
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vastinez View Post
Oh yes they are. I don't know what bible you have been reading but the one i read clearly shows that sins are equal and that the only one that isn't is blasphemy.
Well then not ALL sins are equal.

godspeed,

freedom
 
Old 02-17-2009, 08:31 PM
 
17,853 posts, read 11,751,366 times
Reputation: 4113
Quote:
Originally Posted by bchris02 View Post
As I said before, many people, especially men in the rural South where I live find homosexuality so disgusting they elevate it into something much bigger than it is. Guys around here are expected to show a hightened level of masculinity. I couldn't mention I was struggling with it without them thinking I was trying to come on to them. Mentioning this to my Christian friends would be the end of our friendship. Its not right that its that way, but its the way it is around here.



Far worse is attending a church like I attended growing up where the doctrine was that if one was having homosexual desires, they had already been given over to a depraved mind (Romans 1) and was beyond hope. I remember one sermon where our preacher said that homosexuality is worse than murder, and is the deepest depths of satanic perversion. Another time somebody in the congregation shouted, "we should round up all the child molesters and homosexuals and put them in gas chambers!". Now that is pure hate. I am currently and have been for the past 10 months going to a different church, though still a very conservative one.


As I said before, most of the posters in this thread have been very respectful. As a Christian, having heard much worse all my life, I honestly don't have a problem with somebody believing it is sinful as long as they keep it in perspective. I am still somewhat unsure on the issue.

As for the sinfulness of homosexuality, the most popular Leviticus 18:22 should not be used in my opinion to condemn gays because its just a few verses over from verses that condemn people who wear multi-fabric garments and many other laws which Christians don't consider binding. The story of Sodom and Gamorrah was describing homosexual gang rape and group orgies, which is a far cry from a loving, monogamous homosexual relationship. That leaves us with Romans 1 and 1 Corinthinas 6:9-10 dealing with the subject. Question is, what was the original intent of the author? What does the original Greek say? And how are we to interpret them? Are they addressing loving, comitted same sex relationships or merely the promiscuous scene that artsyguy was talking about?
I have found over the many years that I have researched this topic and been involved in counselling and facilitating gay and lesbian coming-out groups that most conservative Christians or people who don't know much about sexual orientation think the following:

1. Confuse sexual orientation with sexual behaviour.

-Sexual orientation is about who you are and who you are attracted to on an emotional, physical, spiritual and mental level. There is a solid body of peer reviewed scientific data over the past 30 years or so about sexual orientation and homosexuality. The consensus amongst most reputable scientists/psychologists etc is that sexual orientation is NOT a choice and that there are genetic, pre-natal hormonal and neurobiological factors involved in sexual orientation. While there is a scale, there are basically 3 sexual orientations. Heterosexual, bi-sexual and homosexual.

-Sexual behaviour is...well... having sex.


2. Confuse bi-sexuality with homosexuality.

-Some people are heterosexual with NO attractions to the same sex. Some can be predominantly heterosexual but have some homosexual attractions, some are fairly equally attracted to both sexes, some are predominantly homosexual with some heterosexual attractions and some are homosexual with NO attractions to the opposite sex.

3. Believe homosexuality is a choice.

- This is part of confusing sexual orientation with sexual behaviour. A person cannot choose their sexual orientation or who they are attracted to but they CAN choose whether or not they have a relationship or have sex with a person they are attracted to or fall in love with.

-A bi-sexual person may be able to ignore their attractions to the same sex and just have successful relationships with those of the opposite sex, but a completely homosexual person is only attracted to people of the same gender and does not usually experience any attraction to the opposite gender. Telling them that they must have relationships or sex with someone of the opposite gender is like telling a completely heterosexual person with absolutely no attraction to someone of the same sex they must only be in relationships and have sex with someone of the same sex. It would not feel natural and many would feel very uncomfortable or even feel a sense of revulsion at the thought.

4. Believe that homosexuality is some form of mental illness or deviant behaviour and that homosexuality is like pedophilia or bestiality or paraphilia (sexual fetishes).

- Homosexuality was removed from the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders in 1973, because, apart from their attraction to the same sex, homosexuals had no other pathology so there was no basis for including it as a mental or emotional disorder. Myths and theories about homosexuals having distant fathers or controlling mothers or having all been sexually molested as children or lesbians not being able to get a man etc have been debunked. Yes, some homosexuals were molested as children, many have not. Many heterosexuals were molested as children as well. If every female who was sexually molested at some point in her life ended up being a lesbian at least a quarter of the women in the world would be lesbian. Clearly that is not the case.

-Studies have shown that homosexuals often do suffer from depression/suicide etc but this can be directly related to reactions to homophobia and rejection by family/culture/church.
No doubt many heterosexual people would experience depression/suicidal thoughts too if they were constantly told they were are an abomination, unnatural, evil, pedophile etc.

-The APA (and many other similar professional organisations) has stated that homosexuality is a normal variant of human sexual behavior and is a sexual orientation. Behaviour such as pedophilia, bestiality and paraphilias are considered abnormal sexual behaviour and have nothing to do with sexual orientation.

5. Believe that homosexuality can be "cured" through "reparative" therapy or prayer.

-The American Psychologist's Asssociation and American Psychiatric Association cautions against this treatment because of the mental and emotional damage it can cause; because homosexuality is not a mental illness; because homosexuality is a normal sexual orientation that cannot really be changed; and because there is no reputable scientific evidence to show that it even works.

The people these organizations "treat" are usually highly motivated by religious reasons and their families/church, or their own self-hatred, to try to change their orientation. But the "success" rate is still abysmal. The only ones who have any success in repressing their homosexual attractions and "behaviour" are usually bi-sexual people who have a strong attraction to the opposite sex or at least some attraction to the opposite sex. Many just learn how to pretend or to lie about their feelings and fantasies, even to themselves. Most homosexuals just give up after years of trying to change what can't be changed and being told they just have to pray harder.

6. The Bible says that homosexuality is a sin

-The Bible says that specific types of homosexual behaviour is a sin. Eg homosexual rape (The story of Sodom), idolatry involving ritual sex practices in pagan temples and temple prostitution (Leviticus 18 and 20, Romans 1). Greeks words Paul used: "malakoi" and "arsenokoitai" in 1 Corinthians 6 and "arsenokoitai" in 1 Timothy 1 which translators still can't agree on, but has been translated as masturbators, soft lazy people, homosexual slave traders, pederasts and catamites, temple prostitutes and those who use them etc etc. Translating malakoi as "effeminate" and arsenokoitai as "homosexuals" is only a recent occurance in English Bible translations (1948)

From everything I have read and researched, there is NO scripture that specifically says that homosexuality or loving adult committed homosexual relationships is a sin, unless you want to include homosexual "sex" (not homosexual orientation which is not mentioned at all) under the sin of fornication or adultery because it is usually outside marriage in those places where homosexuals cannot legally marry.

Many Christians I have asked about the Bible seem to know very little about the culture and secular history of the times in which the Bible was written, and often don't know anything about the context.

If homosexuality was as big a sin as some Christians like to make it out to be (comparing homosexuality to murder????), and spend so much of their time and energy condemning it, why wasn't it in the 10 commandments or why isn't written in the NT that Jesus said something about it?

bcris02, if you want any references/links backing up anything that I've written above, let me know. Best wishes for your journey in finding yourself and happiness whether it is with God and your Church or not.

Last edited by Ceist; 02-17-2009 at 08:48 PM..
 
Old 02-17-2009, 08:34 PM
 
Location: Long Island,New York
8,163 posts, read 12,817,106 times
Reputation: 2474
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vastinez View Post
According to the bible it is.

No offense but take the blinders off. This is 2009 and we longer stone people.
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