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Old 02-18-2009, 01:41 PM
 
Location: Bethesda
2,876 posts, read 6,015,006 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goldengrain View Post
I agree. Any 'ism' has the capacity to be twisted and sick and ultimately harmful to the population. Most 'ism's' do not know the meaning of the word 'compromise' and their followers somehow think that pushing it to the extreme is all they'll settle for.

Look at what too heavy a dose of capitalism did to our economy.

Religion should be a private quest, an inner connection, not something that takes over schools and governments.


The face that religion, today, puts on in front of the world requires a backlash.
You have some good points here, and I agree that religion should be kept separate from government. And any religion can be hijacked (pardon the pun) as a venue for naturally violent and disenfranchised people.

But no one should be forced to keep their faith a "private quest". If our belief compels us to spread the news to others then we are going to make us of the right of free speech to do so. I hope you are not suggesting the banning of proselytizing? This is in clear violation of the constitution.
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Old 02-18-2009, 01:43 PM
 
Location: Bethesda
2,876 posts, read 6,015,006 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by braderjoe View Post
Hoo boy.....Islam as the Boogeyman yet again Not to worry dear boy...at the rate Islam is expanding who knows...your grandchildren might just be muslims!
Actually Christianity is the faster-growing religion globally so his grandchildren are more likely to be Christian than Muslim.
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Old 02-18-2009, 01:51 PM
 
4,512 posts, read 6,579,172 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by decafdave View Post
Are you actually suggesting that you have to be either mentally ill or socially deviant to be religious? The people of the world need hope and that is why religions, especially Christianity and Islam, are spreading like wildfire. Christianity is the fastest growing religion in Africa and is winning many converts in Asia. The same is true for Islam in Europe and even the US.

Are you claiming that all these people are "ignored by society" and cannot think of themselves? You accuse us of non-thinking but your simplistic views on religion show who is the non-thinker. Many people become religious after great study and thought.
... if they are not traumatized by experiences leaving them in growing despair ... including the "rationality" of materialism being able to reconcile them with their fates.
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Old 02-18-2009, 01:58 PM
 
Location: Minnesota
1,489 posts, read 1,272,175 times
Reputation: 1890
Quote:
Originally Posted by LargeKingCat View Post
That is certainly what I encountered with the Fundie Christians There is a weekly rehashing of dogma, which is
1 You are going to hell UNLESS
2You accept Jesus as your savior and
3 be a member of this here church

Number 3 is clear, 1 and 2 are kept vague
But this shallow theology is about it.....and it is rehashed weekly
SO you are right there is no room for spiritual growth, nor is there need for it in this kind of system, BECAUSE 1, 2 and 3 listed above are ALL that matters. There is nothing else before or after that, and that is it. That IS the theology ! End of discussion

I would like to see a religious movement that does good for the world. Not that is based on fear and focused only on the afterlife (because that is a negative religion) Not that is based on an ideology of intolerance towards anyone who is not part of the group, but rather one of a philosophy of love and making the world a better place here now today right this minute NOT through promises of an afterlife but with real works in the hear and now, a focus on people and people's needs, a focus on teaching people to work together for a common good, a common good in THIS society. (Fundie Christians will call me a hippie, a liberal, a communist, ultimately a PIG for even suggesting such a thing, BUT I wonder what their Jesus would say?)

Ah, to sleep.... perchance to dream ( a little Shakespeare for your day)
In a way Fundamental christians remind me of my days in Amway....lol. When my wife and I first got married just out of college we were of course broke and "looking" for income. Well here comes amway to the rescue. I'll spare you the gory details....but suffice to say it reminds me a lot of a fundamental christians experience...having been raised in such an environment I speak from experience for anyone who wishes to doubt me.

1) You have lots of meetings (chruch services and amway both)

2) Fire and Brimstone eminate from the pulpit and/or podium. In amway as in religion, if you're not with us, you're against us.

3) Read supporting literature (bible etc...) as much as possible, every day at a minimum. Amway same way. Books, tapes & functions. Daily reading, daily audio tapes and functions at least once a month and usually more often.

4) There is a huge reward at the end. In religions case the reward comes at the end of your life, in amways case it comes as soon as you covince all your friends, neighbors and countrymen to become your downline and you'll then be rich :-)

5) You try to convert all you family, friends, neighbors and basically everyone you meet. In religion you tell them about how great jesus is and how bad their life must be now without him. Eventually you get to the hell part and how they'll suffer without jesus and how they will be rewarded if they accept jesus. With amway, you try to get people to realize how misserable their lives are now without enough money and time, and you tell them if they just decide to join your business and believe like you do....in short order they'll be financially free and have lots of time to spend with their family and avoid all the suffering that normal folks experience all their lives.

6) In religion you spend lots of time with those of the same belief...there is power in numbers you know :-) In religion you get together for church services several times a week, are encouraged to socialize with other members and visit those members in the hospital and have some picnics in the summer with other members. In amway, you spend much of your free time in meetings with your "upline" who continue to hammer away at how wonderful things will be if you just keep having faith that you'll be rich someday soon....did I mention that they keep taking your money for books, tapes and functions while telling you how great a reward you're going to have if you just work a little harder or longer ?

7) Your old friends start to drift away and wonder why you used to be so much fun to be around when they had something in common with you. Now you're a drag to be around and always "preach" to them. In religion your friends find you more judgemental, always talking about one subject in trying while trying to convert them. After all...this is the most important thing in life so we need to being it up at every turn. In amway, it's exactly the same way...you do want to be rich right ?

I think anyone, especially anyone who's experienced amway and religion can relate to the similarities. I've been through both.....not sure what I did to deserve this....lol, but at least I survived, prospered (without amway which was only a small 2 year detour) and am all better now and much happier.
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Old 02-18-2009, 05:36 PM
 
Location: Earth Wanderer, longing for the stars.
12,411 posts, read 15,933,357 times
Reputation: 8722
Yes. The Amway post is a good example.
These religions are cults.
The adherents are boring and the religions are boring and bring nothing new.
I know people who have joined such things to get a promotion at work, to be 'in' with the boss.

It is not that I refute the spiritual experience.
We do not have all the answers.
There is, to me, great value in hope and meditation and compassion and helping.
I think we continue after death of the body.
I am not an atheist.
But the atheists whom I have met act out of honesty and truth whereas the religious act out of hearsay and dogma.
The spiritual things that I believe cannot be proven to another, and I have no way of knowing that my 'revelations' are meant for another.
If we are to act as a civilization, it has to be by building on things that we KNOW, and not speculation based on my 'dream' or written by others in some book.
Spiritual things are given privately and meant to stay so,
not pushing your beliefs down someone else's gullet -
not assuming that you know it all
because you read it in a book.

Surely it is insulting if I tell you that all my beliefs are the truth
and your beliefs will lead you to eternal damnation.

But Christians are obnoxiously saying that to the rest of the world -
well, not ALL Christians.
Islam is even worse. It says to kill the non believer.

Religion today is corruption.
Instead of thinking of their writings as 'indications/inclinations' and
capturing the spirit of the message, they
look for the most brutal passages and then
use them to club the rest of the world with.
This allows them to not examine their own
inadequacies, but conversely, it allows them to
feel superior to others. Most of the evils in the
world start with the individual.

A truly good org would discourage people from
pointing to the evils of the outer world, but
to look withing and create a better person there.

They, to me, are a corrupt club of
twisted individuals who act as backup for each other
in a very skewered view of life.
They are enablers for each other.

The main reason for my thoughts is that I would
live my life very nicely without caring one way or
another about the religious, except it is THEY
who would interject their delusions into our schools
and the political arena, places where they do not belong.

They are the aggressors and have thrown the gauntlet.
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Old 02-18-2009, 05:43 PM
 
Location: England
1,171 posts, read 2,185,778 times
Reputation: 1007
Quote:
Originally Posted by LargeKingCat View Post
That is certainly what I encountered with the Fundie Christians There is a weekly rehashing of dogma, which is
1 You are going to hell UNLESS
2You accept Jesus as your savior and
3 be a member of this here church

Number 3 is clear, 1 and 2 are kept vague
But this shallow theology is about it.....and it is rehashed weekly
SO you are right there is no room for spiritual growth, nor is there need for it in this kind of system, BECAUSE 1, 2 and 3 listed above are ALL that matters. There is nothing else before or after that, and that is it. That IS the theology ! End of discussion

I would like to see a religious movement that does good for the world. Not that is based on fear and focused only on the afterlife (because that is a negative religion) Not that is based on an ideology of intolerance towards anyone who is not part of the group, but rather one of a philosophy of love and making the world a better place here now today right this minute NOT through promises of an afterlife but with real works in the hear and now, a focus on people and people's needs, a focus on teaching people to work together for a common good, a common good in THIS society. (Fundie Christians will call me a hippie, a liberal, a communist, ultimately a PIG for even suggesting such a thing, BUT I wonder what their Jesus would say?)

Ah, to sleep.... perchance to dream ( a little Shakespeare for your day)

Its good that you know the important points of the Christian faith. You have no excuse now on judgement day for your rejection of it. Ooops! Did I sound too fundamnetal there? Just trying to stop you from keeping YOUR eyes closed, YOUR mind shut.
Why don't YOU read the Bible with an OPEN mind? Most christians I know are MORE open minded not less! The truth will set you free my friend....if you let it. Godbless.

As for Jasper and the others - Jesus Christ was mocked by those who lived side by side with him - those who crucified him, and down the centuries the christian faith and Christ has been laughed at. It IS foolishness to you - because you are blind. Not me, not the christians who have had their lives changed, their hearts touched by Christ - who died, rose from the dead and is alive today - we are brands plucked from the fire - we are testimony to a truth which still calls out to men and women today. The truth of the gospel of Christ Jesus - if you will seek with an open, humble heart - you will find, that what I am saying, and others saying on these boards - that Jesus is the Way the Truth and the Life - is 100% true.
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Old 02-18-2009, 05:46 PM
 
Location: Victoria, BC.
30,038 posts, read 30,666,192 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jennaflorrie View Post
Its good that you know the 3 important points of the Christian faith. You have no excuse now on judgement day for your rejection of it. Ooops! Did I sound to fundamnetal there? Just trying to stop you from keeping YOUR eyes closed, YOUR mind shut.
Why don't YOU read the Bible with an OPEN mind? Most christians I know are MORE open minded not less! The truth will set you free my friend....if you let it. Godbless.
Actually I believe it is Christians who do not read the bible with an open mind. If you did then how on earth can you overlook or dismiss all the atrocities attributed to god?
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Old 02-18-2009, 06:00 PM
 
Location: England
1,171 posts, read 2,185,778 times
Reputation: 1007
Quote:
Originally Posted by sanspeur View Post
Actually I believe it is Christians who do not read the bible with an open mind. If you did then how on earth can you overlook or dismiss all the atrocities attributed to god?
The Bible is full of real people, with real problems - God doesn't try to airbursh things. The old testament paints it like it is. People who mess up time and time again. Adultery, Incest, Debauchary, Drunkness, its all in there. Gods not trying to give us a fairy tale - if he was, the Old testament wouldn't be so real, would it?

Sin comes from Mankind. NOT from God. God made a perfect world, and a man and woman to run things. But they had a free will - and chose to do things their way. This brought something called SIN into a world - now fallen.

God is so merciful, time and time again - he gives people chance to repent. What you call God not sorting things out in this world - is really Gods mercy and patience - holding back on his rightful wrath at a world that has turned its back on him - holding back, giving people the chance to repent and get to know their creator.

God is longsuffering, patient, merciful. But there does come a time when enough is enough. Gods judgment is fierce and in the Bible it says 'The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom' - not a terror filled fear - but a respect and awe.

I have read the Bible through and yes, there are difficult things in there - I won't deny that. But the Bible shows the characteristics of God - he is awesome, a creator, merciful, compassionate, just, fearsome, righteous and many other things.
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Old 02-19-2009, 12:12 AM
 
Location: Earth Wanderer, longing for the stars.
12,411 posts, read 15,933,357 times
Reputation: 8722
Quote:
Originally Posted by jennaflorrie View Post
The Bible is full of real people, with real problems - God doesn't try to airbursh things. The old testament paints it like it is. People who mess up time and time again. Adultery, Incest, Debauchary, Drunkness, its all in there. Gods not trying to give us a fairy tale - if he was, the Old testament wouldn't be so real, would it?

Sin comes from Mankind. NOT from God. God made a perfect world, and a man and woman to run things. But they had a free will - and chose to do things their way. This brought something called SIN into a world - now fallen.

God is so merciful, time and time again - he gives people chance to repent. What you call God not sorting things out in this world - is really Gods mercy and patience - holding back on his rightful wrath at a world that has turned its back on him - holding back, giving people the chance to repent and get to know their creator.

God is longsuffering, patient, merciful. But there does come a time when enough is enough. Gods judgment is fierce and in the Bible it says 'The fear of God is the beginning of wisdom' - not a terror filled fear - but a respect and awe.

I have read the Bible through and yes, there are difficult things in there - I won't deny that. But the Bible shows the characteristics of God - he is awesome, a creator, merciful, compassionate, just, fearsome, righteous and many other things.
Oh, what a load of garbage!
In the OT God has all the attributes of a spoiled child.
He throws hissy fits.
He is jealous, which usually comes from insecurity.
He is racist, wiping out entire peoples.
Would a God who is secure in his power tell a guy
'If you really loved me, you'd kill your kid?'
Sane minds do not behave in that manner.
When God does it, it is righteousness, and when others follow in those footsteps and become jealous temperamental bigoted murderers it is BAD?

I will not argue with you about those 'nice' attributes you associate with God, but if you believe that, you are NOT worshiping the brat-God of the OT.

Not to mention how Christians pick and choose what to believe in the bible.

The OT says not to wear clothing of two different fabrics, not to cut your hair, stone disobedient kids.
All considered 'bs' by Xtians, but when there is something against gays, it is a free for all in persecuting them.
The idea of taking God's word literally is absurd.
When Christ said he was a door, nobody thinks of a literal door.
So we are all interpreting as we read, we just disagree on which verses we will take at face value, and which not.

Considering so many saviors born of virgins and crucified for sins and rising up, etc that were gods predating Christ, makes me doubt if Christ even existed, or if he did, then his biographers were not embarrassed to plagiarize from other saviors.
Even Xmas is not when Christ was born. It is a pagan holiday.
Same for the day chosen for Easter. A fertility celebration.
Seems as though someone, early on, was trying to create a religion for all people, and took a little from column A and a bit from column B, pulling ideas and traditions and holidays from many religions to get them to join the new one, Christianity.

I don't find any of these facts upsetting. It would be a much better religion if people did not take it all so literally.
Actually, it would make for better people.
But this involvement in politics and phony righteous indignation and judgment of others - it has turned Christians into a parody of true spirituality.

I think if Christ existed and if he comes back those who say they are worshipping in his name will have a lot to answer for.
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Old 02-19-2009, 12:56 PM
 
Location: On the Edge of the Fringe
4,629 posts, read 3,728,039 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goldengrain View Post
Oh, what a load of garbage!
In the OT God has all the attributes of a spoiled child.
He throws hissy fits.
He is jealous, which usually comes from insecurity.
He is racist, wiping out entire peoples.
Would a God who is secure in his power tell a guy
'If you really loved me, you'd kill your kid?'
Sane minds do not behave in that manner.
When God does it, it is righteousness, and when others follow in those footsteps and become jealous temperamental bigoted murderers it is BAD?

I will not argue with you about those 'nice' attributes you associate with God, but if you believe that, you are NOT worshiping the brat-God of the OT.

Not to mention how Christians pick and choose what to believe in the bible.

The OT says not to wear clothing of two different fabrics, not to cut your hair, stone disobedient kids.
All considered 'bs' by Xtians, but when there is something against gays, it is a free for all in persecuting them.
The idea of taking God's word literally is absurd.
When Christ said he was a door, nobody thinks of a literal door.
So we are all interpreting as we read, we just disagree on which verses we will take at face value, and which not.

Considering so many saviors born of virgins and crucified for sins and rising up, etc that were gods predating Christ, makes me doubt if Christ even existed, or if he did, then his biographers were not embarrassed to plagiarize from other saviors.
Even Xmas is not when Christ was born. It is a pagan holiday.
Same for the day chosen for Easter. A fertility celebration.
Seems as though someone, early on, was trying to create a religion for all people, and took a little from column A and a bit from column B, pulling ideas and traditions and holidays from many religions to get them to join the new one, Christianity.

I don't find any of these facts upsetting. It would be a much better religion if people did not take it all so literally.
Actually, it would make for better people.
But this involvement in politics and phony righteous indignation and judgment of others - it has turned Christians into a parody of true spirituality.

I think if Christ existed and if he comes back those who say they are worshipping in his name will have a lot to answer for.
I would not take something like it seriously or literally (OH WAIT I DON'T!!)
I do embrace Ghandi's quote "I love your Christ but not your Christians; they are so unlike your CHrist"

Well, I mentioned 3 points of the Shallow Christian faith, seems all I have to do is accept the first two and I am done. No need to do anything for or to anyone, no need to live my life a certain way. I can continue on as a serial killer, a murderer, I can organize terrorism and engage in Piracy; all that does not matter because I accepted Jesus and I am going to heaven . End of the statement.
SO let's see...Sunday I will repent and go get Baptized, Monday I will finish my nuclear bomb, Tuesday I will set it off in a major city, Wednesday I will release the botulism and anthrax I have been growing in the basement into the city water supply, Thursday I am going ot be a sniper downtown, Friday blow up a bridge or two, Saturday hang out in my boat and steal from others then Sunday go back to the church I belong to and act so great and pious bnecause I am gong to HEAVEN YIPEE!!!....See you in Heaven !!!!!!

YEAH RIGHT!!!!
Christianity fails on so many levels, and one level of the failure is the example I just gave. It seems that a shallow theology does not give any impetus for a moral compass or encourage anything that is of a benefit to anyone else. Please note that no where does the Bible or any form of Christianity offer any caveat whereby someone can guarantee that their friends and loved ones can join them in heaven; This is a totally personal, and almost, selfish choice.
NOW
SO let's look at what I REALLY Do over the course of a week, and you tell me which is better
Sunday Sleep late after a long week. Make breakfast for everyone and sit around and relax and talk about how much we have to be thankful
Monday Work at the office. Clean out the car afterwork, all the loose change and $$ placed into a jar which will go to a charity when full. TUesday Work in the field. Stop by and check on elderly neighbor, take him a bag of groceries (He especially likes applesauce) Take him and his dog for a slow walk around the street. He tells me he looks forward to Tuesday when I am home early because it lets him know someone cares.
Wednesday Suprise the kids with Pizza and a movie for after homework. Thursday During dinner, remind the kids how important it is to help others and stick together with friends, especially during todays economy. Ask them to write down something nice they want to do for someone they know.
Friday Take the leftover foods (Canned, non perishable etc ) To the shelter. Stop by store for fresh new items.
Saturday AM Work on a community volunteer project, and take the kids along too. It gives them a vested sense in making their community a better place Saturday Night: Have fun and/or relax.

Add ot his all the times I smiled and said hello to everyone I crossed at the store, the times I held the door for ladies, complimented someone on the way they look (I think I made some lady's day yesterday when I held the door open for her and told her how nice she looked)
And sitting here typing these messages encouraging people to think for themselves and get out and do something positive and happy for a change. (Churches also fail on that one)
SO you see, my theology while not involving a heaven hell or God instead involves something REAL: People. It involves teaching my children to do their part to make the world a better place, and trying most humbly and desperately to be an example of that as well. IF there were such a thing as a church that did that, I would be there, but after 40 something years, I have never found one or anything close to one, and I don't look either, because the real work, the real life is around us now, not waiting for us in some non-existant place with some made up deity after we die . Our work is here and now .wake up and look around everyone: There is a lot of work to be done. (Notice I did not say repent)
Once we have fed the hungry, healed the sick, clothed the naked and comforted those who are suffering to the best of our abilities, then we can rest. (And sitting on our bumms in some service on Sunday mornings DOESN'T get it done)
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