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Old 03-19-2009, 09:08 AM
 
11,987 posts, read 10,727,015 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
Obviously there are as many different degrees of knowledge as there are people. I don't personally believe Jesus will have to "work with that enough to impart grace." I believe He could do so, but I don't believe He will have to. I believe He has made it possible for those who didn't have the opportunity to know of His gospel before they died to gain that knowledge before they are resurrected. That's it in a nutshell, but I won't expound on my belief unless someone is interested.
Fair enough, but what about people like me? I was raised very Christian, and found a lot of goodness and truth in it. However, along the way, I read very widely and experienced lots of things and met lots of people -- all of which have complicated my understanding of the world and how it works. Currently, I do not accept the scripture: I am the Way, the Truth and the Life; no man can come to the Father accept through me.

I believe that perhaps Jesus is A way, A truth, A life -- but those who find sustenance in other religions, worship in a different way and follow different a creed are ok by me.

Off to eternal hell fires for me?
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Old 03-19-2009, 09:28 AM
 
Location: God's Country
21,435 posts, read 29,601,834 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WestCobb View Post
Fair enough, but what about people like me? I was raised very Christian, and found a lot of goodness and truth in it. However, along the way, I read very widely and experienced lots of things and met lots of people -- all of which have complicated my understanding of the world and how it works. Currently, I do not accept the scripture: I am the Way, the Truth and the Life; no man can come to the Father accept through me.

I believe that perhaps Jesus is A way, A truth, A life -- but those who find sustenance in other religions, worship in a different way and follow different a creed are ok by me.

Off to eternal hell fires for me?
Well if you believe Jesus the answer is yes, but you don't believe what He said.
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Old 03-19-2009, 09:43 AM
 
Location: On a road heaven bound !
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Quote:
Originally Posted by I LOVE NORTH CAROLINA View Post
Get ready to hear Scripture twisted.
I was wondering where they all went to....
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Old 03-19-2009, 11:32 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by I LOVE NORTH CAROLINA View Post
Well if you believe Jesus the answer is yes, but you don't believe what He said.
Language is a funny thing.. the more you study it, the more you realize that meaning is derived in the mind of the receiver .. no matter what the intended message of the conveyer was. Do I believe what Jesus said? Probably. I'm sure Jesus is someone I would truck with frequently if he and I were contemporaries .. he strikes me as a good dude. We all have our personal Jesus though. Some people think Jesus is all about vengeance and punishing perceived adversaries. You can find some words of his to twist and kind of support this thesis, but that definitely isn't in keeping with the overall tone and context of his message.

I have decided if Jesus is the sort to reject earnest Buddhists, Hindus and Jews, then I reject him. I don't have friends who treat others in a manner I consider unfair. If this puts me on the outs with Jesus, so be it. However, I happen to have faith that if Jesus is the Supreme, the Son, a prong in the Holy Trinity, etc. -- exactly as Christains understand the concepts -- he'll love me enough to understand where I'm coming from. I have that much faith in him. Meanwhile, I continue to search and attempt to grow in my understanding. I may be on this planet for many years to come ... where I'll be when I take my last breath, only God (if there is one) knows.
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Old 03-19-2009, 03:08 PM
 
1,686 posts, read 2,413,832 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShanaBrown View Post
Birdy, I love this passage of scripture in which God says that He will accomplish all His good pleasure. He will have all to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth. If He intends for this to happen, no one will be able to stop Him, not even the most rebellious heart. It's about God's work in the creation, not about God yielding to our darkened minds. It is not thank you God, but no thank you. We have temporary, limited, restricted wills and if we reject Him today it is because we are blinded and deceived. The rejection is temporary. We are not the masters of our own eternal fate. We were created to glorify our Creator. All things were created for the Lord and to Him all things return.
Absolutely! In the end the whole of creation shall sing in antiphonal chorus. And it is also a fact....

"From Him everything comes, through Him everything exists, and in Him everything ends."

Yes, He is the Source, the Guide and the Goal of all that is: the ta pavnte, the all.

Alternate Plan b minus=

From Him some things come, through Him some things exist, and in Him some things end. Potential Source, potential Guide, potential Goal of some that is.
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Old 03-19-2009, 03:10 PM
 
Location: NC
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Quote:
-PLAN A-
Quote:

"The leaves of the Tree of Life are for the healing of the nations. And there shall no longer be a curse upon anything."


Quote:
Absolutely! In the end the whole of creation shall sing in antiphonal chorus. And it is also a fact....

"From Him everything comes, through Him everything exists, and in Him everything ends."

Yes, He is the Source, the Guide and the Goal of all that is: the ta pavnte, the all.




Amen, Birdy. God bless.
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Old 03-19-2009, 03:16 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Birdy_56 View Post
In the end the whole of creation shall sing in antiphonal chorus.
Revelation 5:13

Every created thing= pan ktisma.

Every creature in a still wider antiphonal circle beyond the circle of angels (from ktizw, for which see 1 Timothy 4:4; James 1:18), from all the four great fields of life (in heaven, upon the earth, under the earth as in verse 3, with on the sea epi thv talasshv added).

No created thing is left out.

This universal chorus of praise to Christ from all created life reminds one of the profound mystical passage in Romans 8:20-22 concerning the sympathetic agony of creation in hope of freedom from the bondage of corruption.

If the trail of the serpent is on all creation, it will be ultimately thrown off. -Robertson Word Pictures Of The New Testament.-

"If the trail of the serpent is on all creation, it will be ultimately thrown off."
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Old 03-19-2009, 03:48 PM
 
Location: NC
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Here are some misconceptions about the belief in Christian Universalism from the conversations that I have had with some people. Many believe that if all are restored to God, then Jesus had no reason to die. I have never understood this because the cross is the way that God reconciles all of us to Himself. It is the way that any and all of us are to be reconciled to Him. If a doctor discovers a cure for disease, do we say that the doctor need never have discovered the cure just because the cure cures all people who have the disease? Maybe those are not the best words to use, but this is what comes to my mind.

Another thing that I have heard is that this belief give people a license to sin. Many say that there is no need to be a Christian if all are going to be saved. And this makes me wonder why the person came to the Lord in the first place. Where is your heart or did you come to and stay with the Lord only for fire insurance? Is it only about us or do we really care for the lost? Do we care for them like God cares for them or are we offended like the elder brother in the story of the prodigal son if they return to Him, no matter where they have been? Why would we not rejoice in the fact that they will come to know the error of their ways and return to the Lord? There will always be people who try to take advantage of the grace of God, but God knows all hearts and He knows our motives, intents.

Misconception: The belief in Christian Universalism means that all roads lead to God, that Jesus is not the only way. Christian Universalists believe that Jesus is the Only Way to the Father and we believe that all will be restored through Jesus Christ, the Son of God.

Misconception: The belief in Christian Universalism means that God forces us to love Him and real love is not forced. We must have free choice. It's our choice. Now, if someone convinces you or wins you to His point of view, his perspective, what would you say? If this is for your betterment, would this be wrong? Would not this individual have had some type of influence on you, and a positive one at that? If we have children we seek to influence their wills for good if we love them. What if we are successful? Is this wrong? I believe that God seeks to influence our wills for God and not only this, I believe that He will be totally effective in doing this. He never fails and He knows what it will take to get our attention. It is not wrong for God to be effective in bringing about His desire for every one of His wayward creatures. How could it be?

God bless.

Last edited by ShanaBrown; 03-19-2009 at 04:13 PM..
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Old 03-19-2009, 08:14 PM
 
Location: Midessa, Texas Home Yangzhou, Jiangsu temporarily
1,505 posts, read 3,768,778 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur View Post
I wouldn't call myself a universalist, just a 99.999999% universalist. I also wouldn't say there is no expiration date on salvation, because I believe there is. I just don't think that one's chances for salvation end at death.

Yes, but the operative phrase here is "that I can recall." I believe you will continue to exist after your death. I also believe you existed for billions of years before you were born. And for what it's worth, I believe you stand a pretty fair chance of going to Heaven. I hope that's not a problem for you either.
No that's not a problem, in fact I really appreciate your optimistic assessment. Intellectually, I have no reason to believe in an afterlife. Emotionally, I hope there is one.
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Old 03-19-2009, 08:26 PM
 
Location: Midessa, Texas Home Yangzhou, Jiangsu temporarily
1,505 posts, read 3,768,778 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mattie Jo View Post
I lean heavily towards the Universalist Quakers, and I do believe that all are saved. God's love is that great. Yes, I believe that people like Hitler would be saved, even you. Ha. It is God's grace that saves, and as he said, "He desires all to be saved," and I believe he gets what he wants or he isn't God. My own personal experience of God tells me that this is true as well.

I am not a believer than Christ is the only way. His teachings are not new, but they are very good for most part, and I don't believe that the Bible is inspired by God, although it has things that are inspiring in it.

I am curious about CU and will look them up. Never heard of them before.

I really don't understand why you find that there is then no motivation to not sin. I believe in being kind towards others, not hurting anyone intentionally, and basically helping people in need. I may not have the same morals as a fundamentalist Christian, but I base them on what Christ and others have said, "Do unto others as you would like them to do unto you." I try to base them on love.

Good thread starter by the way, but I imagine you will have a lot of opposition to it.
Good point. I guess what I meant was that there would be no motivation to hurry up and be forgiven of past sins if there is no arbitrary time limit on grace. Of course there is always a motivation to be kind towards others and not hurt anyone. Thanks for pointing that out.
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