Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I know the idea you're proposing is not Unitarian Universalism, but I think it's impossible to talk about CUism without invoking it -- since UUism was sort of CUism in its more primative forms of Unitarianism and Universalism.
Here are my thoughts. If there is a God in the Christain understanding of the concept, he's at least as moral as I am. I'm moral enough to allow for those who have a different perspective than mine. I'm also moral enough to forgive behavior that is based on a flawed premise. I'm not God, and I don't pretend to be, but I do judge. I judge those whom I think have bad intentions or who purposefully harm others to advance selfish, ultimately destructive agendas. Of course, what's destructive? That gets real tricky, since it is conceivable that someone can act in a totally chaotic way (to my sensibility) toward some higher purpose. I also know that while I can make some guesses about others' intentions, at the end of the day, I never really know what lurks in the murky mire of another's soul.
I have studied other religions -- not as extensively as I'd like, but extensively enough to know that I choose to reject a God who would damn an earnest Hindu, Buddhist or Jew. I'm not sure I believe in God, but I do have enough faith in him to believe that if he does exist, he's not going to damn earnest Hindus, Buddhists and Jews for not accepting him in the way that Rick Warren, T.D. Jakes, Pat Robertson or any other Christain (right, left and indifferent) think they should.
Again, I really don't believe in God in the way that many, if not most, in our culture mean when they use that word, but the longer I live the more I come to believe in (and trust in) the existence of Truth and Wisdom. Truth and Wisdom are elusive, and I will never gain an ultimate, or even minimal, understanding of them, but I do believe they are there. I'm neither a nihlist nor a postmodernist. I am a Universalist of sorts, and I think there is room for CUism under that umbrella.
Since this is what the Bible clearly teaches, could you provide a few verses to substantiate your claim. Also, what about those who never had a first chance? Unless you live in a dream world, you've got to admit that a little kid who lives in the slums of Calcutta, a remote village somewhere in the middle of Africa or in some country where Christianity is forbidden to be taught doesn't exactly have the same chance to accept Jesus Christ as a kid who grows up in middle-class America.
That little kid may not have as much of chance as someone in America, but the opportunity is there, read Romans 1:18-20, no will have an excuse when they stand before the Lord for not knowing God. Everyone has a chance.
verses that prove eternal hell
Matt 25:46
Jude 1:7
Luke 16:19-31
2 Thes 1:9
Rev 20:14
I know there are more, but I'm getting sleepy, I'll check later.
That little kid may not have as much of chance as someone in America, but the opportunity is there, read Romans 1:18-20, no will have an excuse when they stand before the Lord for not knowing God. Everyone has a chance.
verses that prove eternal hell
Matt 25:46
Jude 1:7
Luke 16:19-31
2 Thes 1:9
Rev 20:14
I know there are more, but I'm getting sleepy, I'll check later.
I'm getting sleepy, too, Carolina, so I'm not going to get out my Bible tonight. I'll check back with you tomorrow. Have a good one.
I'll just pose one question for you before I sign off. I pretty much expected you to mention that no one will have an excuse for not believing. That's kind of the standard response I see from people with your point of view. I see a huge difference between acknowledging the existance of a Higher Power and having even a basic knowledge of the Atonement of Jesus Christ. While it could reasonably be argued that only the most stubborn people would insist that there is no God at all (and I'm not even 100% convinced of that), it would be impossible for anyone to have faith in a Redeemer they had never heard of, wouldn't you agree?
it would be impossible for anyone to have faith in a Redeemer they had never heard of, wouldn't you agree?
What if someone has faith that they will be redeemed and has a general sense of the Redeemer but not the detailed understanding of the redeemer as spelled out in the Bible? Can the Redeemer work with that enough to impart grace?
I'm getting sleepy, too, Carolina, so I'm not going to get out my Bible tonight. I'll check back with you tomorrow. Have a good one.
I'll just pose one question for you before I sign off. I pretty much expected you to mention that no one will have an excuse for not believing. That's kind of the standard response I see from people with your point of view. I see a huge difference between acknowledging the existance of a Higher Power and having even a basic knowledge of the Atonement of Jesus Christ. While it could reasonably be argued that only the most stubborn people would insist that there is no God at all (and I'm not even 100% convinced of that), it would be impossible for anyone to have faith in a Redeemer they had never heard of, wouldn't you agree?
I hope you had a good nights rest.
I think the reason you have heard my response that no one will have an excuse is because it's what the Bible says. All people have an inner sense of what God requires, but some choose to ignore it. People can suppress God's truth and they will have to endure to consequences of ignoring it.
I hope you had a good nights rest.
I think the reason you have heard my response that no one will have an excuse is because it's what the Bible says. All people have an inner sense of what God requires, but some choose to ignore it. People can suppress God's truth and they will have to endure to consequences of ignoring it.
That's still not addressing my question, Carolina. If a person has not heard of Jesus, or even if he has heard of Jesus but only from people who do not accurately portray who Jesus was and what He has done for us, how can that person be expected to accept Him as his Savior? Please give this some genuine consideration before answering. There are millions of people who have lived over the past two thousand years who fall into this category.
What if someone has faith that they will be redeemed and has a general sense of the Redeemer but not the detailed understanding of the redeemer as spelled out in the Bible? Can the Redeemer work with that enough to impart grace?
Obviously there are as many different degrees of knowledge as there are people. I don't personally believe Jesus will have to "work with that enough to impart grace." I believe He could do so, but I don't believe He will have to. I believe He has made it possible for those who didn't have the opportunity to know of His gospel before they died to gain that knowledge before they are resurrected. That's it in a nutshell, but I won't expound on my belief unless someone is interested.
That's still not addressing my question, Carolina. If a person has not heard of Jesus, or even if he has heard of Jesus but only from people who do not accurately portray who Jesus was and what He has done for us, how can that person be expected to accept Him as his Savior? Please give this some genuine consideration before answering. There are millions of people who have lived over the past two thousand years who fall into this category.
Romans 1:19-22 "For the truth about God is know to them instinctively. God has put this knowledge in their hearts. From the time the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky and all that God made. They can clearly see His invisible qualities, His eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse whatsoever for not knowing God".
I hope this answers your question.
Basically as I understand it, CU maintains that salvation is a gift from God with no strings attached. There is no hard sell approach about having to "get saved" before you die. This does suppose that people need "saving" but that is another debate, for now let's assume they do. This would IMO solve some the problems with Christian mythology, for example what happens to babies that die without having sinned by the Christian definition but who cannot accept God's gift. Or what about people who lived before Christ, or people who lived in lands with no knowledge of him. CU seems to tidy it all up by saying that death is not the end of God's grace. Confessing that Jesus is your savior and therefore being "saved" is something that could happen after death.
Now it also introduces new problems. For example, could someone really, really, bad be saved, like say Hitler or a filthy atheist(kidding)? The answer would have to be yes.
Also, there would be no motivation not to sin, since you have all eternity to eventually get around to it. Not to mention that there would be no motivation to be part of the official church, and that would be bad for the church in a political sense, which may be why this idea is considered heresy to begin with.
Also again, some would doubt the value of your conversion if you could make it after you knew for certain the truth of life after death. Say for example that you didn't believe and Christ and you died and went to hell, then you converted, would that make your conversion less faithful? Probably. But doesn't the Bible say that people are saved by God's grace alone and not on merit. If you assume that a conversion before death has more merit than one after then that would contradict the idea of grace.
Now again, I don't believe in this, I am totally comfortable with the fact that when I die I will simply cease to exist. This is not a problem for me since I didn't exist for billions of years before I was born and that wasn't a problem that I can recall. I just think that CU seems more enlightened than the usual version of Christianity that I hear, the " God has a free gift for you, but you must act now and join his fan club to qualify!"
Hi Lucidus, I am a believer that all people will eventually be reconciled to God, and I am a Christian Universalist, not Unitarian. I believe that all are reconciled to God through Jesus Christ, that He is the one and only way. All CU's do not agree on each an every things just as those of other perspectives but I do believe that what we do in this life does matter and that it isn't a matter of waiting to the last minute to come to God, although some may have this view. What does this tell me about their heart? Are they really wanting to please the Father and Jesus? Do they really understand why Jesus died for us? I believe that many will experience the severe judgments of God based on their works here in this life but I believe that this eventually leads to their restoration as God will subject all people to Himself that He may be all all. We can either come to Him today willingly and submit to His glorious purpose for our lives or we will eventually be broken to realize that we are in need of a Savior. Why waste time when we could be about doing His work like being lights in the world, learning how to put sin to death in our lives, becoming what we were created to be, reaching for the prize of the high calling of God. Why not come to our Father now and get Him to know Him today? Sin only destroys. I believe that He will come to dwell in all hearts.
Quote:
WEll, I don't believe in their belief. They believe in God, but don't believe that people will go to Hell, but God's Word says other wise.
I believe that many will experience hell but I don't believe that it is eternal.
The view expressed in the video is basically how I understand hell but I am not Jewish. I believe that it is only through Jesus that we can take care of our mistakes today.
If a person has not heard of Jesus, or even if he has heard of Jesus but only from people who do not accurately portray who Jesus was and what He has done for us, how can that person be expected to accept Him as his Savior? Please give this some genuine consideration before answering. There are millions of people who have lived over the past two thousand years who fall into this category.
Hi, seeing the glory of God in nature does not teach us about who Jesus is and that He died and was raised to life for us. Why do we spread the good news of Christ if people can know about having a saving relationship with Him only by observing nature? We can look at nature and see God's invisible qualities, His divine nature and eternal power, realizing that He exists, giving Him the glory and honor, but we cannot know about Jesus and what it means to have a saving relationship with the Creator until we hear the message of the One who gave His life for us. God bless.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
)? The answer would have to be yes.
