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Unread 04-29-2009, 02:11 AM
 
7,654 posts, read 5,806,527 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeekerSA View Post
The specific gravity of Ice is 0.9168

The specific gravity of Aluminum is 2.6989

Thus if only made from aluminum, you aircraft are heavier than ice.

We all know that stuff like the landing gear is made of steel.

While snow falls would have covered the aircraft, they would have sunk too.
Were not talking about aluminum ingots here, were talking about a hollow airplane. And the link clearly states no snow or ice was in the plane. Please, I know you believe in evolution, but at sometime in your life you have to consider the facts that are presented to you. And the story clearly states (NO ICE WAS IN THE PLANE.) And the story clearly states that many hundreds of layers of ice were built up over the plane. If you try adding anything more to the story, it is just your personal bias, and imagination at work here.
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Unread 04-29-2009, 09:06 AM
 
Location: Richardson, TX
7,543 posts, read 5,455,349 times
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creationist comedy
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Unread 04-29-2009, 09:46 AM
 
Location: Victoria, BC.
22,847 posts, read 15,526,078 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Campbell34 View Post
Wow sanspeur, I guess you did not read my post. In 46 years Ice in Greenland built up to 260 feet. If your ice core is 1900 feet thick, and you divided that by 260 feet. It would take about 368 years to reach a depth of 2,090 feet. And that is based on the accumulation that was experience in Greenland. Your 100,000 years is what scientist assume the age of the ice to be. Yet, real time observations show us such accumulation can occur much faster.
Are you dense, or didn't you read my post? I said nothing about Greenland.

Precipitation in Antarctica interior is 2 inches per year. It's classified a desert.

Tell me how long it would take to reach a depth of 9,840 feet.
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Unread 04-29-2009, 09:51 AM
 
Location: Victoria, BC.
22,847 posts, read 15,526,078 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Campbell34 View Post
Were not talking about aluminum ingots here, were talking about a hollow airplane. And the link clearly states no snow or ice was in the plane. Please, I know you believe in evolution, but at sometime in your life you have to consider the facts that are presented to you. And the story clearly states (NO ICE WAS IN THE PLANE.) And the story clearly states that many hundreds of layers of ice were built up over the plane. If you try adding anything more to the story, it is just your personal bias, and imagination at work here.
You still haven't addressed the snowdrift factor here.....Are you are being intentionally obtuse, as you have been throughout this thread? Perhaps it is not intentional.
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Unread 04-29-2009, 10:04 AM
 
Location: In the lovely land of oz.
61 posts, read 43,398 times
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On the topic of ice, when was the last ice age? Does the bible mention anything about that? Maybe the plane was there before the last ice age.
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Unread 04-29-2009, 10:15 AM
 
Location: Victoria, BC.
22,847 posts, read 15,526,078 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Make me a believer View Post
On the topic of ice, when was the last ice age? Does the bible mention anything about that? Maybe the plane was there before the last ice age.
I believe the last ice age peaked about 18,000 years ago, so no planes, but of course the creationist would say 18,000 years is impossible.
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Unread 04-29-2009, 10:23 AM
 
Location: Nashville, Tn
7,917 posts, read 10,464,478 times
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As far as the questions about ice and the planes are concerned it should be noted that ice, even though it's a solid, also has a certain fluidity which we can observe with photos taken over long periods of time of ice flows. Rocks and other objects that are solid will sink into ice and the sinking will happen even faster if they are darker in color. An airplane, even though it's hollow is extremely heavy and I see nothing unusual about an airplane gradually sinking into the ice. In fact that's what we would expect it to do.
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Unread 04-29-2009, 11:13 AM
 
Location: Richardson, TX
7,543 posts, read 5,455,349 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MontanaGuy View Post
As far as the questions about ice and the planes are concerned it should be noted that ice, even though it's a solid, also has a certain fluidity which we can observe with photos taken over long periods of time of ice flows. Rocks and other objects that are solid will sink into ice and the sinking will happen even faster if they are darker in color. An airplane, even though it's hollow is extremely heavy and I see nothing unusual about an airplane gradually sinking into the ice. In fact that's what we would expect it to do.

A couple of things to take into account is that the planes were located on a dynamic ice flow, not static, which alone would exacerbate the plane's downward working. Another is the geographic location.

The airplanes landed near the shore of Greenland, where snow accumulation is rapid, at about 2 m per year. Allowing for some compaction due to the weight of the snow, that accounts for the depth of snow under which they are buried. The planes are also on an active glacier and have moved about 2 km since landing. Ice core dating takes place on stable ice fields, not active glaciers. The interior of Greenland, where ice cores were taken, receives much less snow. In Antarctica, where ice cores dating back more than 100,000 years have been collected, the rate of snow accumulation is much less still.


A report of "many hundreds" of layers in the ice above the Lost Squadron may also be explained by the airplanes' location on Greenland. That location is relatively warm because it is low and more southerly; its surface gets repeatedly melted during the summer, creating multiple melt layers per year. At the site of the GISP2 ice core, melting occurs only about once every couple centuries. Melt layers are easily distinguished in ice cores. The more than 100,000 layers in ice cores are definitely not melt layers

http://www.asa3.org/ASA/PSCF/2003/PSCF12-03Seely.pdf

partial quote from above article:

Quote:
The Lost Squadron
Argument
In July of 1942, six pursuit planes (P-38’s) and two bombers (B-17’s) crash-landed on the Greenland ice cap. By 1990 they were found under c. 250 feet of ice and snow, which depth corresponds to c. 250 years of accumulation for the GISP2 ice core. In his 1992 paper, Larry Vardiman mentioned the surprising burial depth of the Lost Squadron planes, but he admitted that their depth of burial could not be simplistically used as evidence that the ice cores are being misdated. Some young-earthers have not been as wise and have argued from the depth of the WWII planes to the rejection of the age of the ice cores. Carl Wieland wrote a short paper in 1997 arguing on the basis of the depth of the WWII airplanes that the 3,000 meter long GRIP ice core “would only represent some 2000 years of accumulation.”42 Allowing for some compression of lower layers and the greater snowfall for a few centuries after the Flood, he concluded, “There is ample time in the 4,000 or so years since Noah’s day for the existing amounts of ice to have built up.” Kent Hovind, who has a four-minute tape on the Internet about ice cores, calculated that the WWII planes were covered at the rate of c. 5 feet of snow/year. He then said that if you divide that rate into the 10,000 foot ice core, you only get 1,824 years; so “4400 is a really reasonable assumption.”43 Hovind also telephoned Bob Cardin, who was one of the main people who raised one of the planes to the surface and asked him if he had noticed how many layers there were in the ice in the hole made to excavate the plane. Cardin answered off the cuff, “Many hundreds of them.” On the basis of this answer, Hovind concluded that the lines in the ice cores are not summer/winter, but warm/cold lines and that thirty of them could be made in a single year. Two experienced glaciologists informed me that Hovind is largely correct about the “hundreds” of lines in the hole dug to remove theWW2planes. They both said that the area where the planes landed is a relatively warm area because of its lower, southern elevation, and several melt layers can be formed every year in regions like that which would appear as layers in the hole. Add to these melt layers the actual annual layers, which near the top show up as several lines within the space of a few inches, and you can have an off the cuff estimate of “hundreds of lines.” One can understand Hovind’s confusion. But let’s make this perfectly clear: The 110,000 layers of the GISP2 ice core are not due to melting. They are definitely not melt layers. Even if melting had occurred more often in the past, layers due to melting are readily recognized and would certainly not be counted as annual.44 This leaves the question: How could some 250 feet of snow in the area of GISP2 cover a period of c. 250 years while 250 feet of snow in the area of the Lost Squadron planes only covers c. 50 years? In Richard Alley’s book, The Two Mile Time Machine, he says he is often asked this question. The answer is: “The World War II planes landed in one of the regions of Greenland where snow accumulates fastest.”45 And in answer to the question: Did anyone ever figure out why the Lost Squadron planes were buried so much deeper than expected? Bob Cardin told me that it was because the average snow accumulation in that area is c. 7 feet/year (7 x 50 = 350 feet deep). If you allow for some compression, it is easy to understand how the planes got buried 250 feet deep.

So, the area in which the Lost Squadron landed, which is southern Greenland c. 10 miles from the east coast, with its high rate of snow accumulation (c. 7 feet/year) vs. the area of GISP2 in central Greenland with its comparatively low rate of snow accumulation (1 foot or so/year)46 is why 250 feet of snow represents just 50 years for the Lost Squadron but around 250 years for the GISP2 ice core.47 And, of course, as one goes down the core, the snow/ice is compressed more and more so that each foot of ice represents greater and greater lengths of time.

Last edited by PanTerra; 04-29-2009 at 11:36 AM..
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Unread 04-29-2009, 11:21 AM
 
Location: Somewhere out there
9,621 posts, read 5,847,333 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Campbell34 View Post
National Geographic says nothing about any evidence that does not agree with the theory of evolution, I though you would of understood that by now. They did get caught trying to push a false dinosaur bird.

National Geographic Shoots Itself in the Foot -- Again!
One must, of course, also realize just who "caught" them. It was..... yep, you guessed it...

Scientists!

No skulking around allowed in these hallowed halls. When we mess up, "we admits it", even though no-one else ever does. Certainly NOT the Creationist crowd (if so, please, please show me just one instance of the Creationists realizing one of their own tried to fake something, and then publically reporting it in the press. No?). Unless, of course, you're convinced they NEVER HAVE....

My point? Science is fundamentally honest and effectively self-policing. So you can, for the majority case, believe what they say. You wouldn't be trying to toss out ALL scientific research about Evolution based on this one case, now would you, Tom?

That would be intellectually dishonest.

BTW, I'm still waitin', as is Seeker, for those answers. Or have you moved on to Deflection #, #,,, what is it now? Sunken WWII planes as proof that Evolution never happened? Howzat exactly?

Oh BTW, a quick Google of both Bert Thompson, PhD and Brad Harrub, PhD (as I always now do when you ref. some new disclaimer about Evolution):

Both come up quickly on Google as "Creationists". One graduated from the Abilene Christian University, and the other from The College of Medicine, U. of Tennessee. The last one's acceptable as possibly "unbiased", but.... both are listed as publishing together everywhere, with multiiple papers presented claiming to completely discount what we now know to be fact about Evolution, so what can we conclude about both of them?

Especially, what level of objectivity about Creation can we expect from a person who graduated from a Christian University? For example, would you believe the ramblings about Evolution from a scientist if he graduated from "The Oregon Private College of Evolutionist Studies"? Huh? Wouldyah?

So, you best find better spokemen who at least try to hide their biases better

BTW, I've decided to grant a few honorary degrees here today, along those lines.

Congratulations, Dr. Sanspeur. Dr. MontanaGuy. Dr. Seeker. Dr. PanTerra. Anyone else want one? You have all proven your implacable lack of bias, plus a special knowledge of Evolution gained from your studies here, under extreme opposition.

Feel free to utilize these degrees and titles appropriately, such as to validate whatever claims you now wish to make on behalf of the proven fact of Evolution!
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Unread 04-29-2009, 11:31 AM
 
Location: Victoria, BC.
22,847 posts, read 15,526,078 times
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Why thank you Rifleman..I'm honoured....I'll hang my sheepskin right above my computer.
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