Evolution question of the day (theologians, philosophical, Old Testament, tithe)

[Campbell34]

Originally Posted by SeekerSA

These are not my theories. It is based on real measurable verifiable science and not some ancient text or supposition.

This is not my personal mission in life. There are millions you will agree with my presentations and a handful of misinformed sheeple that will agree with you.

What evidence? Everything you present is easily debunked. Not my theories, scientists which I happen to believe is true as it is supported by other disciplines you know stuff like caves, geology, ice cores.
You have not presented anything other that what the YEC that no one knows what the flow rates were. They use the same lame argument on caves but that any sane person can see will not work. At the flow rate required to form a cave formation on your pathetic POV, the cave would flood and there would only be stalactites but very samll as the water flow would not allow the formation - you know that thing called erosion - we are talking dissolved mineras here not mud.
First "honest" answer (almost). But what constitutes a historical fact then? It seems you are very flexible when it comes to the bible stories moving locations of alleged events like the red sea crossing.

Are thus dismissing the age as you have no other explanation or is it because it does not fit your 6kYO planet?

Correction - you try but fail miserably
Agreed but you cannot ignore it because AiG has no alternative answer. You will find no rebuttal from a YEC regarding the falls. The people and culture of that region had nothing to do with the ME goat herders and the goat herders did not even know the Vic. falls existed - they did not even know what a water fall was.
These are not assumptions. The photographic evidence alone proves how the gorges were formed. Alll you are unwilling to admit is how long it took. Based on your YEC model, the backcutting would be evident since their discovery and that "evidence" is lacking. Actually the 100,000 years IMO is gratutious, it is likely millions not hundreds of thousands but that is my opinion .

Cannot be proven? Really? I think you are reaching here.

All I have attenmpted to prove is the age of the earth is greater than 6000 years. I have shown 3 separate disciplines namely caves, the falls and ice cores which are as diverse from one another as possible. They all come away with their own facts that are supportive of an old planet.
What obvious evidence? This:
Already debunked - see previous post.

I would be very hard pressed here in SA to find a believer that believes in the YEC. They have never taught creation "science" here and the stories of Genesis are no more than Sunday school stories.

Even your own Grand Canyon "alternate reality" explanations cannot explain the multiple layers one sees and which we have an equivalent here in SA (see earlier post on Blyde River Canyon)

Based on what I posted in your absence from AiG, they claim a rapid laying down which according to them will present a single layer. Not to mention their ASSUMPTION of lime laden ash from the springs of the deep of the ocean. So just like you claim no one was there 50,000 years ago on the falls, how can your claimant make such a bizzare assuption of lime coming from the ocean bed.

Explain then the multiple layers. The evidence there is also clear to the naked eye to see, not some 19th century testimony that cannot be validated.

Anyone that wishes to accept YEC "science" in lieu of modern science, I wish them luck. Possibly this is why the USA is losing traction in science compared to other nations.

You should really save up and come on a tour to SA. At an exchange rate of 10:1, you will get to see far more than what it would cost you in the USA. After seeing all the places I have mentioned, you will abandon your YEC or at least begin to question it.

I don't care who's theories you say they are. I have asked for facts from 50,000 years ago, and you are not able to provide them for me. So how is this verifiable science able to measure anything, when they don't know anything? You only believe what you do, because you are able to ignore, deny, or filter out all other facts that refute what you personally desire to believe. I do not agree with the Evolution time line, because there is nothing outside of assumption, and beliefs to support them. The Bible gives a timeline, and the Bible has numerous facts that are being confirmed by historical discovery, which gives me confidence in it's truth. Unlike evolution, we do not have to keep going back and make adjustments to the Biblical account. The obvious evidence I point to, has been in the record for a long time, and it is found all over the earth. For years people from all walks of life have been showing us manmade objects found in the depths of the earth. These people are not all liars, and this evidence should be considered. Yet because of what such evidence would do to a rather popular theory, it is ignored or denied. Multiple layers can be seen in Mt.Saint Helens. What some thought would of taken thousands of years to happen, only took a few years. So the multiple layer theory is not valid for a test of great time.

[bluepacific]

Originally Posted by SeekerSA

To think I wasted an hour researching his rubbish

A one page rebuttal rolling on floor pulling hair out of head - Oh wait I am bald.

Well then the logical question is: Why do you waste time debating with him ???

Would you also be surprised to learn you may not be debating the person you think you are.

I'm sure he makes his daddy proud though!

[SeekerSA]

Originally Posted by Campbell34

I don't care who's theories you say they are. I have asked for facts from 50,000 years ago, and you are not able to provide them for me.

Well 50k Y ago, there was only cave paintings at best, you know your ask is impossible and furthermore silly.

So how is this verifiable science able to measure anything, when they don't know anything? You only believe what you do, because you are able to ignore, deny, or filter out all other facts that refute what you personally desire to believe.

Did not know anything? What did your goat herders know exactly? Godunnit?

I see we are getting testy now eh? No I believe stuff that is verified by parallel or dissimilar disciplines. Your AiG crap are mostly one pagers and when one takes key words we google and get the hoaxes and/or non scientific claims. You want to present evidence that has not been debunked already but most of what you present there are ample papers - peer reviewed et al that exist.

If you are accusing me of selective filtering, then by your own admission, you do the same visiting only YEC sites as they suit your bias. I never know which site I am going to when I google. When I find it a YEC site I look elsewhere because the YEC stuff is so scant in information and rarely provide any real cognitive reasoning. The assume YEC to be correct and by way of circular logic return to the presupposed conclusion - that is not science.

I do not agree with the Evolution time line, because there is nothing outside of assumption, and beliefs to support them. The Bible gives a timeline, and the Bible has numerous facts that are being confirmed by historical discovery, which gives me confidence in it's truth.

BS.

The biblical timeline was derived from some priest that worked back the generations supposedly to Noah. When we already question the validity of the idea Adam lived to 900 odd years old and his many offspring having these amazing lifespans. Even recent history proves the mortality rate has decreased with the introduction of medicine discovered by SCIENCE - REAL SCIENCE. The numbers living beyond 50 have also dramatically increased. You folk want us to believe that way back when, folk lived longer than us all the while dodging dinosaurs too?

Thus your "timeline" is based on assumptions. Problem is these are rapidly being proven false by modern science.

Most of your biblical "facts" are questionable and open to interpretation - thay also seem to have a rather apparent amount of flexibility seeing that when something has been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt, the goal posts are simply moved aka deflected to another rabbit hole.

Unlike evolution, we do not have to keep going back and make adjustments to the Biblical account.

You're kidding right? Flexi prophesy 101? Especially in your camp.

The obvious evidence I point to, has been in the record for a long time, and it is found all over the earth.

What is found all over the earth, the bible?

For years people from all walks of life have been showing us manmade objects found in the depths of the earth. These people are not all liars, and this evidence should be considered.

Hoax after hoax and they are saints - I get it - it is OK when you do it but when the other side make mistakes (and admit it) you folk hide the purported evidence from proper scientific scrutiny. Why? Because they are amplifying their "findings"

Yet because of what such evidence would do to a rather popular theory, it is ignored or denied. Multiple layers can be seen in Mt.Saint Helens. What some thought would of taken thousands of years to happen, only took a few years. So the multiple layer theory is not valid for a test of great time.

WTH has Mt. St. Helens have to do with the current discussion? Do you really want to discuss volcanoes?

Multiple layers can be seen in the grand canyon, the Blyde river canyon and many other canyons around the world. It is these valleys in the ground that blow the YEC out of the water hence you come up with lame explanation after lame explanation ignoring modern dating methods (not C14)

Noticeably absent from the Grand Canyon and the Blyde river canyon are volcanoes. In fact the only traces of volcanoes we have in SA are the kimberlite tubes where diamonds are found and they are all in flat country.

Kimberly mine (defunct) Once upon a time there was a volcano there. Where are any volcanoes now? The surrounding countryside is FLAT - Did that volcano disappear in 6k years? Mighty fast erosion seeing that this is in the Northern Cape and as you can see relatively dry. It is in fact semi-desert. The only significant river nearby is the Vaal and has no ability to flood this town.

Of course if you think diamonds are not formed in kimberlite tubes aka the main conduit pipe of volcanoes, this will make no sense to you.
http://abovethefun.com/PICS/Bighole/bighole500.jpg (broken link)

Flat eh?

Just like your Grand Canyon, the surrounding area is relatively flat

[SeekerSA]

Originally Posted by bluepacific

Well then the logical question is: Why do you waste time debating with him ???

Would you also be surprised to learn you may not be debating the person you think you are.

I'm sure he makes his daddy proud though!

Well you know me and futurists/rapturists. They and the YEC are cut from the same cloth.

I wonder sometimes if Campbell is not a troll to post links to YEC sites for hits so that they get paid for advertising pass throughs? Fortunately I have an ad filter so I see only content.

BTW Campbell check out this site that debunks all the stuff you are likely to offer as proof in future.

http://paleo.cc/

[rifleman]

Originally Posted by Campbell34

I don't care who's theories you say they are. I have asked for facts from 50,000 years ago, and you are not able to provide them for me.

Bull, and you know it. Rather, you won't accept anything ex-biblical. Ever. Anything, not one little iota.

So how is this verifiable science able to measure anything, when they don't know anything?

What utter tripe, Tom, and sadly, you know it full well. You ARE quite stubborn, but then I know why; your very psychological existence and mental stability hangs in the balance. I'll take another stab at it though, in the most simple terms, I happen to have a complete seminar on this topic saved on my computer (I used to teach it at the "U", but whadda I know?)

I'll briefly outline some scenarios below, but I've learned not to waste too much time on you.

You relentlessly say such mindless babble as:

You only believe what you do, because you are able to ignore, deny, or filter out all other facts that refute what you personally desire to believe.
Let's examine that for a moment as it relates to time lines and geo-age determinations:

For literally well over a hundred years, geologists, who are just working people not involved in any argument about religion, have needed to understand, let's say, the dynamics of a local stream that feeds into a river high up in a mountain lake, which then drains into a river that flows down into a low-lying populated area. In the spring of each year, the freshet (heavy snow melt runoff) is of concern.

Why, Tom? Why that freshet? To disprove your mindless, blindered faith in YEC? Hardly.

It's because, in the case of an excessively large or long freshet, those downstream people might be harmed, Tom. By what? Flooding, not The Devil or oddball scientists, Tom

So. How do these supposedly biased geologists exhibit their day-to-day practical evil biases? Why they look at current, recent and past events. and how do they do that, Tom? By looking up to the sky and wailing in a building glorified by colored glass, by bowing their heads down and praying for a nice spring?

Now, even you might say (though not necessarily, I'd also wager..) that such an ecclesiastical approach would perhaps not yield the same useful results as the simple expedient of walking out into the forest, stream-side, and measuring that stream flow, eh, Tom?

Or perhaps looking at what happened last year, when they had flow records, or the past ten, or the past 70, years when they had actual stream flow records. Plus, of course, the layers of materials deposited in each of those 70 years for which they had absolute records. VARVES*, Tom. The Devils' Work, no doubt!

Well, in the realist's world, of which you know very little, tom, there are, sadly, no deities involved in the analysis of sedimentary deposition, at least not amongst the sane geologists. But perhaps those evil, blue-painted, biased ones, I can't really say though. You may be right..... riiigggggghhhtttt.....

You lost yet, Tom? Any extreme biases here yet? If so, go lock yourself into a closet.

So, they go down to that downstream lake, and they look at a little ultra-reliable fact of annual life called a depositional "varve"*. Go ahead, look it up. You won't find it under "demon incantations and biased beliefs" anywhere, though.

Each varve happens once a year as the eroded materials are deposited on the lake floor when the water velocity slows down after it leaves the narrow, steeply sloped confines of the stream. The sediment is first finely sized, then more course, then fine again as the freshet winds up, then down, in the late spring or early summer.

Lost you yet, Tom? Anywhere that you see geologists with their eyes closed, hands outspread, tears in their eyes, looking up at the skies for help in interpreting this? Didn't think so. Not yet, anyhow, eh?

So. Each year's erosional material can be easily seen in a simple core sampling of the floor of that ancient lake. (Getting an uneasy feeling here yet, Tom? Seeing where this inerrant and supremely logical and untamperable bit of evidence might be pointing? Do you have to go back into the closet, ears covered, in the dark, and yelling "NahNahNahNah...) now?)

So. Again, unconcerned about whether God was or is responsible, and only being concerned about a possible life-saving prediction for those who live downstream, (Oh, how EVIL! How BIASED!) they take to analyzing these sediments as to type, thickness, origin of the individual types of materials that coincidentally (See how the DEVIL works? Soooo insidious! SAVE US!) match known depositional materials within and beside the stream's origin areas.

Say, a unique redrock area in an upstream snow pack area that can be particularly dangerous if it all melts too fast. So that might be a key indicator if it shows up thicker than usual in that year's varve deposition, like all EVIL erosional sediments do, easily visible in that year's "varve".

Oh Nooooo! This is Satan's Work!

So, our biased simpleton geologists, ignoring the obvious natural information God has placed in front of them, go on. Being logical, or so they believe....

But perhaps this is too near to EVIL for you, eh, Tom? Need a break? Please, then, go pray against such unearthly interpretations!

Meanwhile, back in the REAL world, unfettered by wailing, willful Christian mythology, our hapless and mis-guided geologists take a look at the longer term, by coring down, say, 2000 feet into the floor of this active lake hydrology system. [Note from the reality editor: on Greenland, Iceland and in some northern lakes, EVIL scientists seeking The Biased Truth, have drilled now to over ten miles. TEN MILES. Imagine what varve numbers they've counted. counting, Tom; you know? 1, 2, 3, 4, ..... 150,000?)

When they pull up the core sample, which I suppose God has messed with by rearranging and, more importantly, adding, more varves than actually happened, they discover, the blindered moron geologists, that they have nice reliable history of each year's varves, what was deposited, and it's thickness (length and ferocity of freshet) and makeup (easily determined under even the lowest power child's quality entry Rite-Aid drugstore microscope, but they now also have the Dread X-Ray Fluorescence [my particular expertise, but then you know I've got the DEVIL perched con MY shoulder, dontcha Tom?].

So, having gone into their summer field tent, stripped their clothes off and painted their bodies blue, painted "666" on each other's backs and downed some "devil water", they emerge, eat some magic mushrooms and proceed to let their inner DEBIL help them interprete this SOOO CONFUSING information.

Let's see; up here in this Rocky Mountain lake, we find..... we find... (pass the cheeeeep whiskey, and help me light this pile of bibles on fire...)..we find... whattsisss? !4,000 years of varve depositions in this core alone, and we stopped early? We only had equipment that any junior geo-tech could fit into a small inflatable boat, after all. wait until the National Geological Survey team gets here next year, with that grant from the National Academy of Biased & Evil Scientists (NABES)!!

And this was in a mountainous area that has been up-thrust (another Godless bit of un-provable mumbo-jumbo I'll admit... no evidence for THAT bit of tripe of course...).

Tom? Tom? You seem to have left the building. To do what? Go "NahNahNahNahNahNahNahNahNahNahNahNahNahNahNahNahN ahNahNahNahNahNahNahNahNahNahNahNahNahNahNahNahNah NahNahNahNahNahNahNahNahNahNahNahNahNahNahNah"
praying in the closet (I know; for space limitations, I cut it a bit short...)?

Just who, here, in my scenario, is biased, Tom? Me? This happens to be some of the work I actually did, without any religious goals in mind, quite a few years ago, but then, as I've said, I'm under the heavy influence of Satan in your biased eyes, I know, and he made my eyes see ten varves to each actual one, right? or was it 20? 30?

Or, as I've heard from another cuckoo religious but admittedly very imaginative denier acolyte, desperately inventing oddball alternative theories to dispose of things laying right there in front of them: your tricky god simply made four times as many seasons as we have now, spinning the Earth four times faster, so that for each of our now-known runoff events, there were four back then. That would allow plenty of time for the animals to migrate, meet, nest-build, mate, produce the offspring, teach 'em to get the heck out fast (3 weeks instead of the usual 4 months.

Now THAT'S logical, but only in your desperate world, Tom. Oh I forgot, you've left this argument, unless you're now realizing this might just be verifiable and THE TRUTH. Nahh... impossible for the burdened completely unscientific illiterate mind in denial.

So. Our idiot geologists compared what they found in the varve layer history, "proofing" it against the recorded flow history they have from when actual physical records were kept at the various stream monitoring stations and (waaaaiiitttt for itttttt...) they exactly coincide! A key discovery, wouldn't you think, Tom? Tom? (where Is he when the key points are made? Geezzz...)

Tom? Tom? Where are you when we need your unique spirutually driven counter-interpretation, to show us where we are soooooooo off on this simple bit of interpretive effort? Otherwise, I'll wrap this up soz you can come out of your closet (there's a problem with THAT* though, see below...)

They now can look past the recorded data. say, a year past, which has nothing uniquely different about it's depositional material content, thickness, etc. to suggest that god's vastly over-revved-up Earth had been spinning faster up until the very day that those DEBIL geologists showed up. And there were not written or oral histories from the old locals or native Indians about having to hang on to their centripetally flung-off tents, belongings, etc., from that hyper-fast spinning world Not any explanation for where that rotational inertia or energy when god suddenly, seeing a geologist walking, Satanically, into the forest with an EVIL CLIPBOARD in his hand, suddenly slowed down that supernatural rotational rate that would explain to all the nutballs just why, since then, "varve" deposition analysis on both lake and lower stream deposits, suddenly proofs up with documented history.

Oh, and especially where there's a stream "meander" that some kindly but evil soul posted recently here for your unique (unbiased but uneducated) commentary.

Meanders provide us with a nice clean reliable depositional record, long ago abandoned as that stream, with obvious EVIL intents, moved to the other side of the valley.

Well, I'm tired, and I just now know, on faith, (see more nutball comments below as PROOF, even when my DEVIL's off somewhere else, tickling some other person's once-logical mind) you'll write it all off somehow.

What else do I know on faith? Why, that you'll repeat the usual acolyte's mindless scientifically-illiterate (by your own admission) revision of these simple analyses by our hapless and Satanically infested geologists, who where just out there trying to save the lives, and congregation members (to which several of my Christian geo-helpers belonged, BTW. Oh No! Satan is EVERYWHERE!).

I JUST CAN'T WAIT to hear your incredibly silly interpretation that completely erases all known "varve" theory, Tom! Perhaps I can go back and make a presentation at the next GeoScience Convention?

Nah.... I couldn't stand the abusive, incessant laughter and ruination of my reputation as a reliable, unbiased and knowledgeable scientist.

I do not agree with the Evolution time line, because there is nothing outside of assumption, and beliefs to support them.

You apparently weren't listening to me, were you, Tom, m'boy?

The Bible gives a timeline, and the Bible has numerous facts that are being confirmed by historical discovery, which gives me confidence in it's truth. Unlike evolution, we do not have to keep going back and make adjustments to the Biblical account.

Nope, not true, "Being disproved, daily, hourly", is more to the truthful point. Like my example above, to which I expect NO honest reply.

You've only got that now thoroughly disproved mythology to base your entire belief system, indeed, your means of personally interpreting everything around you in life. All proven wrong. to millions of believers in logic and the scientific toolset. Dating, chronology, fossil evidence, DNA sequencing identifying our closest chimp relatives, Lucy, X-Ray fluorescence, basalt/limestone Arks, and on and on. All agreeing, coincidentally, to form, in your addled mind a vast global conspiracy! SATAN truly is powerful, ain't he? Or: It's Yikes for you!

The obvious evidence I point to, has been in the record for a long time, and it is found all over the earth. For years people from all walks of life have been showing us manmade objects found in the depths of the earth.

Or disproved to be utter frauds, like those completely discredited Mexican playdough insta-toys you so desperately hang your hat on. Not too many rungs on that hat rack, are there, Tom? Unlike the one over in the Science lab. We have thousands of rungs we first triple or quadzillion-checked out, trying first to discredit ourselves, (ever seen your evangelical pseudo-scientists do that, TOM?) before we go and make inerrant statements. It's called The Scientific tool-Set, Tom.

These people are not all liars, (no, just a lot of them, plus, obviously, they have NO training in standardized, verifiable question methods, Tom. Also known as? Anyone? Anynoe? Yah wanna answer this one, Tom?) and this evidence should be considered.

We have. All of it. As demanded by ethical standards & simple curiosity. Since it all requires supernatural mumbo-jumbo explanations, and a complete denial of even the most basic logic, it's reputation now tends to precede it, and yet, we still look into the better hoaxes. If only for entertainment value, in some cases).

Yet because of what such evidence would do to a rather popular theory, it is ignored or denied. Multiple layers can be seen in Mt. Saint Helens. What some thought would of taken thousands of years to happen, only took a few years.

So the multiple layer theory is not valid for a test of great time.

Really! Just like that, eh? Satisifed, are you, Tom? No wonder science eludes your mind so easily! Let’s explore your inerrant irrelevant logic for a moment shall we? A simple but valid metaphor.

Brace yourself, Tom:

Because you’ve had a flat tire once, all tires can no longer be trusted, right? Trillions of safe miles have been accrued on many billions of tires, but one was bad, so “watch out”?

How do you even trust to get up each morning Tom, with such vast mistrust or errant logic (or desperate fear…) in your thinking?

One purposefully mis-interpreted instance, (I'm not convinced there even was, but you're telling the story, so...) and you toss out everything? How sadly dependant and silly. So, my varve count was incorrect? To the point of correcting the number from 150,000 down to 6035? That much of an error?

And whoever said the Mt. St. Helen's stuff was misinterpreted? Where? Link? (an accredited scientific journal, though, please, not nutball "answersingenesis" tripe.)

You're actually making this up, I know it. What does that make you, Tom? Ethically, I mean?

That was a unique depositional event and you can't conflate typical varves (with easily identifiable material content) with an occasional volcanic depositional event in the area. And what (Oh No!) if there's no convenient volcanoes in the areas? Like The vastly old Canadian Shield? And what if the extremely easily ID'd volcanic ash in a varve is absent?

And yet, how do you then deny the world-wide layer of unique, identifiable varve deposition of Yucatan ash that coincided, oddly, with the disappearance of dinosaurs well before biblical times?

Why do you only believe science when it's convenient?

Have you ever talked to a volcanologist, or is this just what you've read on your beloved "answersingenesis" site? Do you ever bother to read ANY OTHER educational sources, Tom? We've all sent 'em; you just won't or can't read them, I understand. It would be reading Satan's Workbook. Hide! Hide! Quick! Here! In this closet!

Why don't you believe the geological reports from other accredited sites or books, excessively duplicated, cross-checked and verified by other independent means or other independent teams seeking unrelated information?

Instead, you hang your now well-torn-up singular hat on unique individual write-ups by unethical authors desperate to denounce ALL scientific discovery based on one nut-ball's errant interpretation? or, as we now clearly see on occasion, on complete yet illogical fabrications that folks like you, so desperately, lap up like a kitten does warm milk. Unquestioningly.

God, you are so easily swayed, Tom, but only in one direction. How does this feel, knowing that you can only believe one biased interpretation, and never even hear ANYTHING ELSE? Even if it's the truth?

Tell me where our geo-interpretations in the field were so very wrong, Tom. Tell us all.

You remind me of one of those trees in a windswept area, that's grown up with a measurable but uncorrectable tilt. An aberration to the norm. Uncorrectable until it finally topples in the face of relentless forces out of it's control, but that it resisted for years.

Well then. I'm going over to that thread about misquotes and inaccurate prophesies in your inerrant bible. If I find just one, I can throw out the entire bible, right, Tom? Right? I mean, this is YOUR logic, not mine.

*To my earlier point about your closet, Tom: if your ears are permanently covered, and you're yelling to cover up the truth, how, exactly, will you know when it's safe to come out? When the EBIL SATANISTS like me have left?

Will your mythical Jesus tell you "It's Safe Now Tom. No More Truths to Deny!"?

[rifleman]

Originally Posted by Campbell34

I don't care who's theories you say they are. I have asked for facts from 50,000 years ago, and you are not able to provide them for me.

Bull, and you know it. Rather, you won't accept anything ex-biblical. Ever. Anything, not one little iota.

So how is this verifiable science able to measure anything, when they don't know anything?

What utter tripe, Tom, and sadly, you know it full well. You ARE quite far beyond stubborn, but then I know why; your very psychological existence and mental stability hangs in the balance. I'll take another stab at it though, in the most simple terms. I happen to have a complete seminar on this topic saved on my computer (I used to teach it at the "U", but whadda I know?)

I'll briefly outline some scenarios below from that convincing presentation, but I've learned not to waste too much time on you.

You relentlessly say such mindless babble as:

You only believe what you do, because you are able to ignore, deny, or filter out all other facts that refute what you personally desire to believe.
Let's examine that for a moment as it relates to time lines and geo-age determinations:

For literally well over a hundred years, geologists, who are just working people not involved in any argument about religion, have needed to understand, let's say, the dynamics of a local stream that feeds into a river high up in a mountain lake, which then drains into a river that flows down into a low-lying populated area. In the spring of each year, the freshet (heavy snow melt runoff) is of concern.

Why, Tom? Why that freshet? To disprove your mindless, blindered faith in YEC? Hardly.

It's because, in the case of an excessively large or long freshet, those downstream people might be harmed, Tom. By what? Flooding, not The Devil or oddball scientists, Tom

So. How do these supposedly biased geologists exhibit their day-to-day practical evil biases? Why they look at current, recent and past events. and how do they do that, Tom? By looking up to the sky and wailing in a building glorified by colored glass, by bowing their heads down and praying for a nice spring?

Now, even you might say (though not necessarily, I'd also wager..) that such an ecclesiastical approach would perhaps not yield the same useful results as the simple expedient of walking out into the forest, stream-side, and measuring that stream flow, eh, Tom?

Or perhaps looking at what happened last year, when they had flow records, or the past ten, or the past 70, years when they had actual stream flow records. Plus, of course, the layers of materials deposited in each of those 70 years for which they had absolute records. VARVES*, Tom. The Devils' Work, no doubt!

Well, in the realist's world, of which you know very little, Tom, there are, sadly, no deities involved in the analysis of sedimentary deposition, at least not amongst the sane geologists. But perhaps those evil, blue-painted, biased ones, I can't really say though. You may be right..... riiigggggghhhtttt.....

You lost yet, Tom? Any extreme biases here yet? If so, go lock yourself into a closet.

So, they go down to that downstream lake, and they look at a little ultra-reliable fact of annual life called a depositional "varve"*. Go ahead, look it up. You won't find it under "demon incantations and biased beliefs" anywhere, though.

Each varve happens once a year as the eroded materials are deposited on the lake floor when the water velocity slows down after it leaves the narrow, steeply sloped confines of the stream. The sediment is first finely sized, then more course, then fine again as the freshet winds up, then down, in the late spring or early summer.

These material analyses easily allow the geo-techs to separate out unique transient events, like volcanic fallout, forrest fires, etc.

Lost you yet, Tom? Anywhere that you see geologists with their eyes closed, hands outspread, tears in their eyes, looking up at the skies for help in interpreting this? Didn't think so. Not yet, anyhow, eh?

So. Each year's erosional material can be easily seen in a simple core sampling of the floor of that ancient lake. (Getting an uneasy feeling here yet, Tom? Seeing where this inerrant and supremely logical and untamperable bit of evidence might be pointing? Do you have to go back into the closet, ears covered, in the dark, and yelling "NahNahNahNah...) now?)

So. Again, unconcerned about whether God was or is responsible, and only being concerned about a possible life-saving prediction for those who live downstream, (Oh, how EVIL! How BIASED!) they take to analyzing these sediments as to type, thickness, origin of the individual types of materials that coincidentally (See how the DEVIL works? Soooo insidious! SAVE US!) match known depositional materials within and beside the stream's origin areas.

Say, a unique redrock area in an upstream large-snow pack area that can be particularly dangerous if it all melts too fast. So that might be a key indicator if it shows up thicker than usual in that year's varve deposition, like all EVIL erosional sediments do, easily visible in that year's "varve".

Oh Nooooo! This is Satan's Work!

So, our biased simpleton geologists, ignoring the obvious natural information God has placed in front of them, go on. Being logical, or so they believe....

But perhaps this is too near to EVIL for you, eh, Tom? Need a break? Please, then, go pray against such unearthly interpretations!

Meanwhile, back in the REAL world, unfettered by wailing, willful Christian mythology, our hapless and mis-guided geologists take a look at the longer term, by coring down, say, 2000 feet into the floor of this active lake hydrology system. [Note from the reality editor: on Greenland, Iceland and in some northern lakes, EVIL scientists seeking The Biased Truth, have drilled now to over ten miles.]

TEN MILES. Imagine what varve numbers they've counted. Counting, Tom; you know? 1, 2, 3, 4, ..... 150,000?

When they pull up the core sample, which I suppose God has messed with by rearranging and, more importantly, adding, more varves than actually happened, they discover, the blindered moron geologists, that they have nice reliable history of each year's varves, what was deposited, and it's thickness (length and ferocity of freshet) and makeup (easily determined under even the lowest power child's-quality entry level Rite-Aid drugstore microscope, but they now also have the Dreaded X-Ray Fluorescence [my particular expertise, but then you know I've got the DEVIL perched on MY shoulder, dont'cha Tom?].

So, having gone into their summer field tent, stripped their clothes off and painted their bodies blue, tatooed "666" on each other's backs and downed some "devil water", they emerge, eat some magic mushrooms and proceed to let their inner DEBIL help them interprete this SOOO CONFUSING information.

Let's see; up here in this Rocky Mountain lake, we find..... we find... (pass the cheeeeep whiskey, and help me light this pile of bibles on fire...)..we find... whattsisss? 14,000 years of varve depositions in this core alone, and we stopped drilling early? and the results werer consistent and invariable and easily counted?

And, we only had simple equipment that any junior geo-tech could fit into a small inflatable boat, after all. Wait until the National Geological Survey team gets here next year, with that grant from the National Academy of Biased & Evil Scientists (NABES)!!

And this was in a mountainous area that has been up-thrust several times, dcestroying previous lakes with, no doubt, many more ancient varve layers (another Godless bit of un-provable mumbo-jumbo I'll admit... no evidence for THAT bit of tripe of course...).

Tom? Tom? You seem to have left the building. To do what? Go "NahNahNahNahNahNahNahNahNahNahNahNahNahNahNahNahN ahNahNahNahNahNahNahNahNahNahNahNahNahNahNahNahNah NahNahNahNahNahNahNahNahNahNahNahNahNahNahNah"
praying in the closet (I know; for space limitations, I cut it a bit short...)?

Just who, here, in my scenario, is biased, Tom? Me? This happens to be some of the work I actually did, without any religious goals in mind, quite a few years ago, but then, as I've said, I'm under the heavy influence of Satan in your biased eyes, I know, and he made my eyes see ten varves to each actual one, right? or was it 20? 30?

Or, as I've heard from another cuckoo religious but admittedly very imaginative denier acolyte, desperately inventing oddball alternative theories to dispose of things laying right there in front of them: your tricky god simply made four times as many seasons as we have now, spinning the Earth four times faster, so that for each of our now-known runoff events, there were four back then. That would allow plenty of time for the animals to migrate, meet, nest-build, mate, produce the offspring, teach 'em to get the heck out fast (3 weeks instead of the usual 4 months.

(But, PS: even @ 4 to one, that only reduces the count to, what is it Tom? Got your trusty calculator? Or do you also mistrust it?

Lesseee... 4 into 150,000 = "only" 37,500 years old. Despite our having to COMPLETELY suspend all reality and logic to getto that number, even that wacko number is sort of at real odds with the inviolate and inerrant 6035 years, right? So the bean-head acolyte alternative theory is also, ergo, stupid, right? So they're ALL stupid, right? (see your logic, directly above and below)

THAT'S logical only in your desperate world, Tom. Oh I forgot, you've left this argument, unless you're now realizing this might just be verifiable and THE TRUTH. Nahh... impossible for the burdened completely unscientific illiterate mind in denial.

So. Our idiot geologists compared what they found in the varve layer history, "proofing" it against the recorded flow history they have from when actual physical records were kept at the various stream monitoring stations and (waaaaiiitttt for itttttt...) they exactly coincide! A key discovery, wouldn't you think, Tom? Tom? (where Is he when the key points are made? Geezzz...)

Tom? Where are you when we need your unique spirutually driven counter-interpretation, to show us where we are soooooooo off on this simple bit of interpretive effort? Otherwise, I'll wrap this up soz you can come out of your closet (there's a problem with THAT* though, see below...)

They now can look past the recorded data. say, a year past, which has nothing uniquely different about it's depositional material content, thickness, etc. to suggest that god's vastly over-revved-up Earth had been spinning faster just up until the very day that those DEBIL geologists showed up. And there were not written or oral histories from the old locals or native Indians about having to hang on to their centripetally flung-off tents, belongings, etc., from that hyper-fast spinning world. Not any explanation for where that rotational inertia or energy when god suddenly, seeing a geologist walking, Satanically, into the forest with an EVIL CLIPBOARD in his hand, suddenly slowed down that supernatural rotational rate that would explain to all the nutballs just why, only since then, "varve" deposition analysis on both lake and lower stream deposits, suddenly "proof up" with documented history and projections for the future. And, sadly for you, the past.

Oh, and especially where there's a stream "meander" that some kindly but evil soul posted recently here for your unique (unbiased but uneducated) commentary.

Meanders provide us with a nice clean reliable depositional record, long ago abandoned as that stream, with obvious EVIL intents, moved to the other side of the valley.

Well, I'm tired, and I just know, on faith, (see more nutball comments below as PROOF, even when my DEVIL's off somewhere else, tickling some other person's once-logical mind) you'll write it all off somehow.

What else do I know on faith? Why, that you'll repeat the usual acolyte's mindless scientifically-illiterate (by your own admission) revision of these simple analyses by our hapless and Satanically infested geologists, who where just out there trying to save the lives, and congregation members (to which several of my Christian geo-helpers belonged, BTW. Oh No! Satan is EVERYWHERE!).

I JUST CAN'T WAIT to hear your incredibly silly interpretation that completely erases all known "varve" theory, Tom! Perhaps I can go back and make a presentation at the next GeoScience Convention?

Nah.... I couldn't stand the abusive, incessant laughter and ruination of my reputation as a reliable, unbiased and knowledgeable scientist.

I do not agree with the Evolution time line, because there is nothing outside of assumption, and beliefs to support them.

You apparently weren't listening to me, were you, Tom, m'boy?

The Bible gives a timeline, and the Bible has numerous facts that are being confirmed by historical discovery, which gives me confidence in it's truth. Unlike evolution, we do not have to keep going back and make adjustments to the Biblical account.

Nope, not true, "Being disproved, daily, hourly", is more to the truthful point. Like my example above, to which I expect NO honest reply.

You've only got that now thoroughly disproved mythology to base your entire belief system, indeed, your means of personally interpreting everything around you in life. All proven wrong. To millions of believers in logic and the scientific toolset. Dating, chronology, fossil evidence, DNA sequencing identifying our closest chimp relatives, Lucy, X-Ray fluorescence, basalt/limestone Arks, and on and on. All agreeing, coincidentally, to form, in your addled mind a vast global conspiracy! SATAN truly is powerful, ain't he? Or: It's Yikes for you!

Besides, unfortunately, you CAN'T go back and change the silly biblical accounts. That's it's cdross to bear, so to speak. It's signed, seled and delivered, and is disproven more and more, hour by hour, and it's devoted believers are thus ever the more ludicrous for standing by it's inerrancy.

The obvious evidence I point to, has been in the record for a long time, and it is found all over the earth. For years (scientifically illiterate) people from all walks of life (Except millions of ethical and objective scientists...)
have been showing us manmade objects found in the depths of the earth.
(down to about 10 million years of age. You're right, Tom! Congrats!).

Or disproved to be utter frauds, like those completely discredited Mexican playdough insta-paycheck toys you so desperately hang your hat on.

Not too many rungs on that hat rack, are there, Tom? Unlike the one over in the Science lab. We have thousands of rungs we first triple or quadzillion-checked out, trying first to discredit ourselves, (ever seen your evangelical pseudo-scientists do that, TOM?) long before we go and make inerrant statements. It's called The Scientific Tool-Set, Tom.

These people are not all liars, (no, just a lot of them, plus, obviously, they have NO training in standardized, verifiable question methodologies, Tom. Also known as? Anyone? Anyone? Yah wanna answer this one, Tom?) and this evidence should be considered.

We have. All of it. As demanded by ethical standards & simple curiosity. Sadly since it all has required supernatural mumbo-jumbo explanations, and a complete denial of even the most basic logic, it's reputation now tends to precede it, and yet, we still look into the better hoaxes. If only for entertainment value, in some cases).

Yet because of what such evidence would do to a rather popular theory, it is ignored or denied. Multiple layers can be seen in Mt. Saint Helens. What some thought would of taken thousands of years to happen, only took a few years.

So the multiple layer theory is not valid for a test of great time.

Really! Just like that, eh? Satisifed, are you, Tom? No wonder science eludes your mind so easily! Let’s explore your inerrant irrelevant logic for a moment shall we? A simple but valid metaphor.

Brace yourself, Tom:

Because you’ve had a flat tire once, all tires can no longer be trusted, right? Trillions of safe miles have been accrued on many billions of tires, but one was bad, so “watch out”?

Well then. I'm going over to that thread about misquotes and inaccurate prophesies in your inerrant bible. If I find just one, I can throw out the entire bible, right, Tom? Right? I mean, this is YOUR logic, not mine.

How do you even trust to get up each morning Tom, with such vast mistrust or errant logic (or desperate fear…) in your thinking?

One purposefully mis-interpreted instance, (I'm not convinced there even was, but you're telling the story, so...) and you toss out everything? How sadly dependant and silly. So, my (and the greater geo-science's established..) varve counts are all incorrect? To the point of correcting the number from 150,000+ down to 6035? That much of an error?

And whoever said the Mt. St. Helen's stuff was misinterpreted? Where? Link? (an accredited scientific journal, though, please, not nutball "answersingenesis" tripe.)

You're actually making this up, I know it. What does that make you, Tom? Ethically, I mean?

Mt. St. Helens was a unique (but volcanically typical and easily identified in depositional strata) event and you can't conflate typical varves (with easily identifiable material content) with an occasional volcanic depositional event in the area. And what (Oh No!) if there's no convenient volcanoes in the areas? Like The vastly old Canadian Shield? And what if the extremely easily ID'd volcanic ash in a varve is absent?

And yet, how do you then also deny the world-wide layer of unique, identifiable varve deposition of Yucatan ash that coincided, oddly, with the disappearance of dinosaurs well before biblical times? Millions of year before? Huh? how, Tom?

Why do you only believe science when it's convenient?

Have you ever talked to a volcanologist, or is this just what you've read on your beloved "answersingenesis" site? Do you ever bother to read ANY OTHER educational sources, Tom? We've all sent 'em; you just won't or can't read them,

I understand. It would be reading Satan's Workbook. Hide! Hide! Quick! Here! In this closet!

Why don't you believe the geological reports from other accredited sites or books, excessively duplicated, cross-checked and verified by other independent means or other independent teams seeking unrelated information?

Instead, you hang your now well-torn-up singular hat on unique individual write-ups by unethical authors desperate to denounce ALL scientific discovery based on one nut-ball's errant interpretation? Or, as we now clearly see on occasion, complete and wildly illogical fabrications that folks like you, so desperately, lap up like a kitten does warm milk. Unquestioningly.

God, you are so easily swayed, Tom, but only in one direction. How does this feel, knowing that you can only believe one biased interpretation, and never even hear ANYTHING ELSE? Even if it's the truth?

Tell me where our geo-interpretations in the field were so very wrong, Tom. Tell us all.

You remind me of one of those trees in a windswept area, that's grown up with a measurable but uncorrectable tilt. An aberration to the norm. Uncorrectable until it finally topples in the face of relentless forces out of it's control, but that it resisted for years.

*To my earlier point about your closet, Tom: if your ears are permanently covered, and you're yelling to cover up the truth, how, exactly, will you know when it's safe to come out? When the "EBIL SATANISTS" like me have left? (How insulting, BTW...buty I understand I'm dealing with mass pathological delusion here, so I'll let it slip by without any more comment about bad manners)

Will your mythical Jesus tell you "It's Safe Now Tom. No More Truths to Deny!"?

[Campbell34]

Originally Posted by SeekerSA

Well 50k Y ago, there was only cave paintings at best, you know your ask is impossible and furthermore silly.
Did not know anything? What did your goat herders know exactly? Godunnit?

I see we are getting testy now eh? No I believe stuff that is verified by parallel or dissimilar disciplines. Your AiG crap are mostly one pagers and when one takes key words we google and get the hoaxes and/or non scientific claims. You want to present evidence that has not been debunked already but most of what you present there are ample papers - peer reviewed et al that exist.

If you are accusing me of selective filtering, then by your own admission, you do the same visiting only YEC sites as they suit your bias. I never know which site I am going to when I google. When I find it a YEC site I look elsewhere because the YEC stuff is so scant in information and rarely provide any real cognitive reasoning. The assume YEC to be correct and by way of circular logic return to the presupposed conclusion - that is not science.

BS.

The biblical timeline was derived from some priest that worked back the generations supposedly to Noah. When we already question the validity of the idea Adam lived to 900 odd years old and his many offspring having these amazing lifespans. Even recent history proves the mortality rate has decreased with the introduction of medicine discovered by SCIENCE - REAL SCIENCE. The numbers living beyond 50 have also dramatically increased. You folk want us to believe that way back when, folk lived longer than us all the while dodging dinosaurs too?

Thus your "timeline" is based on assumptions. Problem is these are rapidly being proven false by modern science.

Most of your biblical "facts" are questionable and open to interpretation - thay also seem to have a rather apparent amount of flexibility seeing that when something has been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt, the goal posts are simply moved aka deflected to another rabbit hole.

You're kidding right? Flexi prophesy 101? Especially in your camp.
What is found all over the earth, the bible?
Hoax after hoax and they are saints - I get it - it is OK when you do it but when the other side make mistakes (and admit it) you folk hide the purported evidence from proper scientific scrutiny. Why? Because they are amplifying their "findings"
WTH has Mt. St. Helens have to do with the current discussion? Do you really want to discuss volcanoes?

Multiple layers can be seen in the grand canyon, the Blyde river canyon and many other canyons around the world. It is these valleys in the ground that blow the YEC out of the water hence you come up with lame explanation after lame explanation ignoring modern dating methods (not C14)

Noticeably absent from the Grand Canyon and the Blyde river canyon are volcanoes. In fact the only traces of volcanoes we have in SA are the kimberlite tubes where diamonds are found and they are all in flat country.

Kimberly mine (defunct) Once upon a time there was a volcano there. Where are any volcanoes now? The surrounding countryside is FLAT - Did that volcano disappear in 6k years? Mighty fast erosion seeing that this is in the Northern Cape and as you can see relatively dry. It is in fact semi-desert. The only significant river nearby is the Vaal and has no ability to flood this town.

Of course if you think diamonds are not formed in kimberlite tubes aka the main conduit pipe of volcanoes, this will make no sense to you.


Flat eh?

Just like your Grand Canyon, the surrounding area is relatively flat

No, what is silly, is to tell us something is 100,000 years old based on facts your don't have. You base your 100,000 years on assumptions. This is not science, this is not truth, this is mythology. Believers in Evolution come here and call Christians blind faith believers, when in fact, believers in Evolution are the ones guilty of blind faith beliefs. At least Christians have historical evidence that backs up many of those Biblical accounts. Believers in Evolution only have each others theories to look to, and little else.

And yes, humans existed during the time of the dinosaur, the Bible speaks of dinosaurs, ancient art depicts dinosaurs, and there is numerous example that can be given. Yet, a believer in evolution is suddenly blind when shown dinosaurs in ancient art.

The prophecy of the Jews return to Israel in the last days was spoken clearly by Christians who lived in the 1600s and 1800s. So you can not say that prophecy is open to scientific scruntiny. They repeated the prophecy generations before the prophecy was fulfilled, yet thousands of years after the prophecy was written.

And it is the believers in Evolution who have ignored modern dating, especially considering how they have ignored the testing of the figurines from El Toro Mountain. Dinosaur figurines tested no less than four times showing us the figurines are ancient. And four times believers in evolution refuse to believe those dates. And they refuse, not because the dates are not accurate. They refuse to believe those dates, because the figurines refute their worldview. So now they stick their heads in the sand and repeat to themselves. "It's not true, it's not true, it's not true, it's not true."

[Campbell34]

Originally Posted by Lady Ice

I'm sorry for butting in. I don't want to enter into the debate but I did read this link and I think you should read everything and not just pick out the bits that suit your argument. This was written at the bottom of the above posted link...


[SIZE=+1]These two artifacts, while extremely interesting do appear to be generated by the formation of new rock around an iten dropped by a miner. Stalactite minerals are mostly calcium and as such grow fairly rapidly, one has only to look at calcim buildup around the house to understand this. Based on our evaluation we feel that these two are neither ancient artifacts, nor proof that rock or coal is not as old as scientists say. Some form of rocks with the right water and pressure considerations can form rapidly, especially as concretions around an object.[/SIZE] [SIZE=+1]It is also significant to note that the current owners will not release them for scientific dating studies[/SIZE]

I understand Lady Ice, the hammer is not that old, yet some would suggest the age of the rock would be much older than the hammer. Which of course it is not. There is a great deal of evidence out there that shows us the preception of rock and coal being millions of years old is false. And finding these human artifacts in rock and coal is more evidence of their false belief. As I have stated, there is a great deal of evidence like this, yet believers in evolution will try to deny all of it. For years they have been finding stuff like this deep in the earth. And for years this kind of evidence has been ignored, because it does not agree with the worldview of the believers in evolution.

[sanspeur]

Originally Posted by Campbell34

I understand Lady Ice, the hammer is not that old, yet some would suggest the age of the rock would be much older than the hammer. Which of course it is not. There is a great deal of evidence out there that shows us the preception of rock and coal being millions of years old is false. And finding these human artifacts in rock and coal is more evidence of their false belief. As I have stated, there is a great deal of evidence like this, yet believers in evolution will try to deny all of it. For years they have been finding stuff like this deep in the earth. And for years this kind of evidence has been ignored, because it does not agree with the worldview of the believers in evolution.

What evidence?...You have given us nothing valid since this thread began...Nothing but frauds, hoaxes, myths and trickery.

[SeekerSA]

Originally Posted by Campbell34

No, what is silly, is to tell us something is 100,000 years old based on facts your don't have. You base your 100,000 years on assumptions. This is not science, this is not truth, this is mythology.

So you did not understand the explanation Rifleman presented. It figures, sorry I am not a cartoonist so I cannot post in pictures. But it seems you ignore the pics I post anyway so that will not work either. Must I start posting in tongues?

Believers in Evolution come here and call Christians blind faith believers, when in fact, believers in Evolution are the ones guilty of blind faith beliefs.

Ya think? You call your last attempt of proof anything other than blind faith, debunked years ago did you read the rebuttal? I guess not.

At least Christians have historical evidence that backs up many of those Biblical accounts.

Please can you quote chapter and verse that explains the Vic Falls, Cave formations and Ice Cores?

Believers in Evolution only have each others theories to look to, and little else.

It is called the Theory of Evolution thus is open to criticism (BTW your critique does not count as you bring no alternative hypothesis) Sure they compare notes. Now the christians never buy other christian books or sing other christian writers songs either I guess, so it must be non believers that bought all that left behind crap I guess?

And yes, humans existed during the time of the dinosaur, the Bible speaks of dinosaurs,

No it does not you are twisting words.

ancient art depicts dinosaurs,

Your mexican crap that was found in fresh soil - yeah right!

and there is numerous example that can be given.

Yeah you have tried and tried and still you fail.

Yet, a believer in evolution is suddenly blind when shown dinosaurs in ancient art.

You mean young art and a scam.

The prophecy of the Jews return to Israel in the last days was spoken clearly by Christians who lived in the 1600s and 1800s. So you can not say that prophecy is open to scientific scruntiny. They repeated the prophecy generations before the prophecy was fulfilled, yet thousands of years after the prophecy was written.

Yeah I know flexi-prophesy 101 not to mention it was the UN that created this new Israel not God. And Israel is secular but what has this to do with Evolution and the age of the earth? Nothing.

And it is the believers in Evolution who have ignored modern dating, especially considering how they have ignored the testing of the figurines from El Toro Mountain. Dinosaur figurines tested no less than four times showing us the figurines are ancient. And four times believers in evolution refuse to believe those dates. And they refuse, not because the dates are not accurate. They refuse to believe those dates, because the figurines refute their worldview. So now they stick their heads in the sand and repeat to themselves. "It's not true, it's not true, it's not true, it's not true."

I am sure the offer of Rifleman stands as do the other offers of valid scientific researchers.

Why is it your people refuse to let out the stuff for proper testing? Why are all your claims full of polygraph tests and ambiguous statements like an Expert in... w/o naming the expert or his credentials. What do the YEC sites cite folk like astronauts in unrelated disciplines or some equally irrelevant "famous" person to try and lend credence to their BS claims?

Have you ever seen a scientist having to take a polygraph test to get his/her findings "accepted"? No.

When are you going to get it though your ..... head that the bible will never explain what science has. The YEC folk were desperate to keep their children uninformed as modern science challenges all that you folk hold dear.

Science has overtaken myth for decades, it seems only in America are there still gullible folk like you that ignore the overwhelming evidence out there.

This post is riddled with questions, all those sentences ending with a question mark looks like this ?

You never answer them why are you scared or don't you have an answer?

I told you that either the falls or the Kango caves would be your Waterloo. Ice cores too. There is nothing YEC or the bible has to offer in these areas except the alleged unknown flow rate but was adequately explained by Rifleman how the ages of rivers are determined. Read it, maybe you will learn something or google some of those big words as he suggested and read other scientific articles on the web.

Speaking of flow rate, we kinda debunked the rock in the desert watering the exodees awhile back with the alleged 2-6M people it would have had to supply. You kind of just walked away embarrassed from that one eh?

You have offered nothing credible on the Vic falls
You have offered nothing credible on the caves
You have offered nothing credible on the ice cores

Do you want to discuss river deltas now? Rifleman has sorta kicked it off if you can glean off and understand what he was saying.

You like mentioning volcanoes, should we put that one to bed too. All the bible will have is a judgment from God but I do not recall reading of volcanoes there.

Oh BTW, the link I posted and commented on earlier

Paluxy Dinosaur/"Man Track" controversy, by Glen J. Kuban (Dinosaur & "Human" Footprints, Paluxy tracks) and specifically the London hammer and Alleged Iron Pot in Coal debunks your coal claims. You will notice this was done many years ago.

Deflect on...