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Old 12-13-2014, 06:00 PM
 
32,516 posts, read 37,091,970 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TroutDude View Post
There may be prophets today but perhaps they broadcast on a frequency few can receive or perhaps in a language few understand. The message may come in via the too-low-to-hear channel that elephants use to communicate across the miles. Or maybe in the ululation of whales.

Perhaps it's in the sound of leaves rustling in a breeze. Or maybe it's silent. Maybe the message is in the eyes of the street person with his hand out.

Or maybe if all followed the age-old advice of Bill & Ted - Be excellent to each other - we'd need no more prophets.
Good stuff.
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Old 12-13-2014, 06:40 PM
 
Location: Eastern Oregon.
360 posts, read 233,544 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hkgal View Post
Something that puzzles me about the bible and christianity in general is why there are no new prophets? Why, all those centuries ago, did god 'reveal' himself to the prophets of the bible, and then seemingly just stop? That makes no sense to me.

I reasonably assume if god revealed himself to a new prophet tomorrow, this person would be considered a raving nut-job and probably mentally ill, even by the most devout of believers.

So why doesn't god reveal himself anymore?
God was Jesus, more valuable than a prophet. Apparently, no one believe him then, so why would they believe His prophets? Jesus sealed prophets for all time, they were OT Jews that preceded Jesus (God).
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Old 12-14-2014, 06:08 AM
 
Location: Chicago Area
12,687 posts, read 6,712,646 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by earl012 View Post
God was Jesus, more valuable than a prophet. Apparently, no one believe him then, so why would they believe His prophets? Jesus sealed prophets for all time, they were OT Jews that preceded Jesus (God).
While this is a popular theory to explain the apparent silence on God's part, this is idea was never taught anywhere in the Bible. At best, there are passages that have nothing to do with "sealing prophets and prophecy" that are misunderstood (sometimes intentionally) to mean that God has sealed the heavens, etc.

If Jesus is your endpoint of choice, you have a big problem. For about 70 years after Jesus death, resurrection and ascension into heaven, there continued to be messengers sent directly from God. They were called apostles and they were the equal to any prophet. If Jesus sealed prophets and prophecy, why send apostles?

Some have postulated that Jesus only sent 12 apostles and that once they were dead, that was all she wrote. Again, this is never taught in the Bible. It is even directly contradicted by the calling of Paul -- a man who was not a first-hand witness of Christ's mortal ministry -- as an apostle. You have others, such as Barnabas, James the brother of Jesus, who are definitely not part of the original twelve. They are not as well documented in the New Testament, but they are clearly referred to as apostles. Many others were probably also apostles as well.

Obviously, new apostles were being called by God after the ascension of Christ. So then, what magic event is the endpoint of prophets and revelation from God sufficient to be considered scripture?? Any Bible scholar with the barest shred of honesty will tell you that the Revelation of John was not the last work written in the New Testament. The Gospel of John and some of the epistles of John were definitely written after Revelations. Several other works probably were as well. The apostles just died out at some point. We have no basis for jumping to any conclusions. Nobody can say, "Well that's the end of prophets, apostles and scripture. It was fun while it lasted, but the works that God has caused to be written must have been enough. We need no more." If it was enough, then that would be huge! That would be the first time in human history when living prophets and/or apostles were suddenly obsolete. When did God explain all of this?

Fact is, He didn't. God can send new prophets and apostles anytime he wishes to. He never said he would stop.
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Old 12-14-2014, 08:07 AM
 
Location: Northeastern US
19,825 posts, read 13,364,699 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by godofthunder9010 View Post
So then, what magic event is the endpoint of prophets and revelation from God sufficient to be considered scripture??
My church's magic of choice was the "closing of the canon of scripture" and it was the near-worship of scripture as the be-all and end-all that rendered miracles and prophecy moot. The scriptures were thought to be more objective and clear and less subject to manipulation or deception. In tandem with this, we would argue that faith is a virtue and "mere human reason" a vice when it comes to spiritual things, so that we are more blessed to believe, despite not having the evidence of the miraculous.

Fast forward to the present day, though, and it's no trouble at all to find Christians who disagree on various points of doctrine and practice, each side believing that the Bible absolutely and unambiguously backs up their position. So it's clear that written revelation is really no help at all. People still see what they want to see, where they want to see it. Because people are still people.
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Old 12-14-2014, 06:14 PM
 
Location: Eastern Oregon.
360 posts, read 233,544 times
Reputation: 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by godofthunder9010 View Post
While this is a popular theory to explain the apparent silence on God's part, this is idea was never taught anywhere in the Bible. At best, there are passages that have nothing to do with "sealing prophets and prophecy" that are misunderstood (sometimes intentionally) to mean that God has sealed the heavens, etc.

If Jesus is your endpoint of choice, you have a big problem. For about 70 years after Jesus death, resurrection and ascension into heaven, there continued to be messengers sent directly from God. They were called apostles and they were the equal to any prophet. If Jesus sealed prophets and prophecy, why send apostles?

Some have postulated that Jesus only sent 12 apostles and that once they were dead, that was all she wrote. Again, this is never taught in the Bible. It is even directly contradicted by the calling of Paul -- a man who was not a first-hand witness of Christ's mortal ministry -- as an apostle. You have others, such as Barnabas, James the brother of Jesus, who are definitely not part of the original twelve. They are not as well documented in the New Testament, but they are clearly referred to as apostles. Many others were probably also apostles as well.

Obviously, new apostles were being called by God after the ascension of Christ. So then, what magic event is the endpoint of prophets and revelation from God sufficient to be considered scripture?? Any Bible scholar with the barest shred of honesty will tell you that the Revelation of John was not the last work written in the New Testament. The Gospel of John and some of the epistles of John were definitely written after Revelations. Several other works probably were as well. The apostles just died out at some point. We have no basis for jumping to any conclusions. Nobody can say, "Well that's the end of prophets, apostles and scripture. It was fun while it lasted, but the works that God has caused to be written must have been enough. We need no more." If it was enough, then that would be huge! That would be the first time in human history when living prophets and/or apostles were suddenly obsolete. When did God explain all of this?

Fact is, He didn't. God can send new prophets and apostles anytime he wishes to. He never said he would stop.
Christians claim God sent apostles, but I don't believe it. Assuming that Jesus was God, God is a duality, and there is no son of God, there would be no reason for God to send any more prophets. God came into the world, was murdered by men, and has assumed a policy of nonintervention. Much of the story about end times is found in Revelation. After the death of Jesus (God), there have been no prophets, just desperate men wanting to create new religions.

God is not responsible for the errors and transgressions of humans. I believe at the time of Jesus's murder, which I think is the story about the two witnesses in Revelation 11, followers of Jesus knew the real story, but were too embarrassed. They would look like fools having abandoned Jesus to the buzzards after he was brutally murdered. I believe Jesus was beaten to death by Roman soldiers. The Crucifixion story was concocted to romanticize the death of Jesus, and then gospel authors came up with the salvation story. Abracadabra, we have a thrilling story equal to anything a gifted Hollywood screenwriter could have written.

Last edited by earl012; 12-14-2014 at 06:57 PM..
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Old 12-15-2014, 09:48 AM
 
Location: Chicago Area
12,687 posts, read 6,712,646 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mordant View Post
My church's magic of choice was the "closing of the canon of scripture" and it was the near-worship of scripture as the be-all and end-all that rendered miracles and prophecy moot.
The interesting tidbit here is that the closed canon was not offical until the Council of Trent of 1546. Subsequently, the various Protestant groups also officially recognized their own canon of scripture and declared the canon of scripture officially closed.

Going back to the early Church, everybody was finally agreed on the books that should be in the New Testament by about 450 AD. This could be seen as an earlier closure of the canon I suppose. It was not official, but that is also a possible timeframe to use. But what event happened at that time to make prophets obsolete?

If sending prophets to humanity was ever important, how did this system of immediate communication from God stop? Why would it stop? If there ever was such a thing as God and prophets, why would God just abandon ship and stop communicating with us? Anyone who is being honest in their approach to studying will realize that the Bible itself never teaches that prophets would not longer be sent.

I can never get a good answer from most Christians on this because I don't think they've ever thought about it. A closed canon "just is" apparently. Nobody bothers to question it, probably because they're told not to.
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Old 12-15-2014, 10:02 AM
 
Location: Chicago Area
12,687 posts, read 6,712,646 times
Reputation: 6593
Quote:
Originally Posted by earl012 View Post
Assuming that Jesus was God, God is a duality, and there is no son of God, there would be no reason for God to send any more prophets.
I've long since rejected the Trinity as nonsensical. I believe in God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. I believe they are infinitely united in thought and purpose, but they are not the same being or substance.

Quote:
Christians claim God sent apostles, but I don't believe it.God came into the world, was murdered by men, and has assumed a policy of nonintervention. Much of the story about end times is found in Revelation. After the death of Jesus (God), there have been no prophets, just desperate men wanting to create new religions.
That's problematic. If God didn't choose and send the apostles then the entire New Testament could not be considered valid scripture. The Revelation of John would be impossible as well. Only somebody with the same status and purpose as a prophet could receive such a revelation for the whole world. So how is it that you seem to consider Revelations valid, but the rest of the New Testament invalid?

Quote:
God is not responsible for the errors and transgressions of humans. I believe at the time of Jesus's murder, which I think is the story about the two witnesses in Revelation 11, followers of Jesus knew the real story, but were too embarrassed. They would look like fools having abandoned Jesus to the buzzards after he was brutally murdered. I believe Jesus was beaten to death by Roman soldiers. The Crucifixion story was concocted to romanticize the death of Jesus, and then gospel authors came up with the salvation story. Abracadabra, we have a thrilling story equal to anything a gifted Hollywood screenwriter could have written.
Strange and weird stories that became religion: Such things abound in ancient history. I believe that the apostles got it right. The best evidence of this is the unlikelihood of if all. A man put to death by the Romans is the Son of God? The promised Messiah? Such a religion would have died in very short order if it were not true.

You are welcome to disbelieve if you wish, but that's all wandering off topic. Do you believe that God ever sent prophets in the first place? If so, why would he ever stop? Granted we do see large gaps in the Biblical record. Prior to the life of Jesus, there was often several centuries between one recognized prophet and the next, but sooner or later God sends another prophet. It is my contention that he can and will do so again.

Last edited by godofthunder9010; 12-15-2014 at 10:16 AM..
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Old 12-15-2014, 01:23 PM
 
1,382 posts, read 765,095 times
Reputation: 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by hkgal View Post
Something that puzzles me about the bible and christianity in general is why there are no new prophets? Why, all those centuries ago, did god 'reveal' himself to the prophets of the bible, and then seemingly just stop? That makes no sense to me.

I reasonably assume if god revealed himself to a new prophet tomorrow, this person would be considered a raving nut-job and probably mentally ill, even by the most devout of believers.

So why doesn't god reveal himself anymore?
Dear hk,
Per Zechariah 13:2, all prophets were removed from the land following the " strike the shepherd that the sheep may be scattered;" (Ze 13:7).

What you now have is the anointing of the children of God, of which there are very few (Mt 7:14).
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Old 12-15-2014, 01:52 PM
 
Location: Eastern Oregon.
360 posts, read 233,544 times
Reputation: 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by godofthunder9010 View Post
Quote:
I've long since rejected the Trinity as nonsensical. I believe in God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. I believe they are infinitely united in thought and purpose, but they are not the same being or substance.
If you accept God as a duality, it almost a trinity, but without the holy spirit. I believe the holy spirit was invented by Christian leaders in order to give them authority, a kind of "I am holy, so believe me" kind of doctrine.

Quote:
That's problematic. If God didn't choose and send the apostles then the entire New Testament could not be considered valid scripture. The Revelation of John would be impossible as well. Only somebody with the same status and purpose as a prophet could receive such a revelation for the whole world. So how is it that you seem to consider Revelations valid, but the rest of the New Testament invalid?
Revelation is about God and end times. Rev. 11 is the real story about Jesus (God). The two witnesses represents God's duality. Rev. 12 is about God's angels fighting Satan while God was in the world as Jesus (Rev.11). There is more, but those are the most important chapters.

Quote:
Strange and weird stories that became religion: Such things abound in ancient history. I believe that the apostles got it right. The best evidence of this is the unlikelihood of if all. A man put to death by the Romans is the Son of God? The promised Messiah? Such a religion would have died in very short order if it were not true.
Perhaps, the new religion should have died, it was based on false ideas. If there is no son of God, as I believe, then what happened would be part of Judaism. Then, of course, without the son of God there would no trinity. As for the holy spirit, Christian leaders made up the idea to given them authority. What better way then to say "the holy spirit told me, so it must be true!" or "If if it is true, I must be holy!"
Thus began holy churches, none of which are really holy.

Quote:
You are welcome to disbelieve if you wish, but that's all wandering off topic. Do you believe that God ever sent prophets in the first place? If so, why would he ever stop? Granted we do see large gaps in the Biblical record. Prior to the life of Jesus, there was often several centuries between one recognized prophet and the next, but sooner or later God sends another prophet. It is my contention that he can and will do so again.
God's prophets are related to His chosen people. They came to establish his holy rule and make prophesies about end times. Christian do not replace Jews. They are not God's chosen people. Things really got fouled up when apostles began declaring Jesus to be the son of god. That is not God's problem, it is a human problem. I think human ego plays a big part in all of the deception, as well as dishonesty. Back then, just like now, we had ambitious men with creative imaginations willing to do almost anything to make their mark on the religious community.
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Old 12-15-2014, 03:59 PM
 
Location: Northeastern US
19,825 posts, read 13,364,699 times
Reputation: 9822
Quote:
Originally Posted by godofthunder9010 View Post
The interesting tidbit here is that the closed canon was not offical until the Council of Trent of 1546. Subsequently, the various Protestant groups also officially recognized their own canon of scripture and declared the canon of scripture officially closed.

Going back to the early Church, everybody was finally agreed on the books that should be in the New Testament by about 450 AD. This could be seen as an earlier closure of the canon I suppose. It was not official, but that is also a possible timeframe to use. But what event happened at that time to make prophets obsolete?

If sending prophets to humanity was ever important, how did this system of immediate communication from God stop? Why would it stop? If there ever was such a thing as God and prophets, why would God just abandon ship and stop communicating with us? Anyone who is being honest in their approach to studying will realize that the Bible itself never teaches that prophets would not longer be sent.

I can never get a good answer from most Christians on this because I don't think they've ever thought about it. A closed canon "just is" apparently. Nobody bothers to question it, probably because they're told not to.
All very true. And yes, it's an unexamined assumption.

At a glance, I see that the Canon of Trent includes I and II Maccabees which is absent from most protestant Bibles, so even that's not really 100% observed / accepted.

At least the date of the Council of Trent somewhat coincides with the invention of the printing press and the advent of Wycliffe and others who got the trend of translating scriptures into the common vernacular off the ground. However, my guess is that anyone claiming to be an actual prophet in the mid 1500s would be burned at the stake as a heretic, likely as not, so even then, they must have placed the miraculous and prophetic offices safely and tidily in their own distant past.
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