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Location: In the North Idaho woods, still surrounded by terriers
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oakback
Yea, try getting the definitive definition of "true christian".
I like your comment Oakback, but maybe not for the reason you intended. I have always tried my best to live my life as Jesus would have approved, meaning, I never have intentionally harmed anyone, I do not intentionally lie, cheat, steal, (I say intentionally because I am not a perfect person and I have fallen to temptation at times during my 62 years), etc etc etc. And so if one uses the term "Christian" to mean someone who lives their life according to the moral teachings of Jesus, I do my best...but not because I believe Jesus was our God or Savior. I believe Jesus was an enlightened man who taught the common sense, moral way to exist with others and I believe that all mankind should try to live that way. I would do my best to live that way even if Jesus had never existed and the Bible had never been written. It is the inside of me that works that way, I guess.
But I am not a "Christian" in the technical sense because I do not believe in, nor follow, the Christian dogma and religion. I am not really sure how I feel regarding a god, or "God", or a Creator, although I tend to believe there is "something" behind all of this. Which is sort of an interesting place to be, I think. Leaving me to ponder Oakback's statement: The definition of a True Christian? It lies in the beholder and the believer.
Actually, I would say that Revelation is not inspired, but neither is the old testament. I think much of what Christ had to say was due to his mystical connection with God. For example, his saying, "I am the Father are one," is also what mystics experience when they meditate and experience God, and afterwards they also claim to be one with God, or better yet, one with all, with the universe. And the messages that they present at that time are much like what Christ said. Buddha was such a mystic and said many things that Christ said 500 years before, only his books speak volumes. Before that yogis had been saying the same things thousands of years before, even "I am That, I am One with God." When you compare religions you learn this. So is the Bible inspired? Some of it. Revelation? Some Hindus compare it to the Gita, which is a war between the good and evil within each person, hopefully, the good winning out in the end.
I appreciate your post. I consider myself of the Christian Mystic tradition. I have certainly experienced that "oneness" of which you speak.
The more I learn about the history of the how the Bible was formulated by churches and warring factions of Christians each attempting to have their beliefs cannonized as the definitive, the more I wonder how so many can trust the book so readily.
Just looking at the scrolls that have emerged in recent years untouched by history (their discovery I do not believe was by accident) makes it clear that Christ's teachings and parables were interpreted very differently in those untouched texts than in the Biblical ones.
I guess each individual must decide for him or herself. For me, the Bible did not exist when Christ preached so he must have told them something that had nothing to do with following a book to get so many illiterate followers excited for 3-4 centuries before a Bible even existed.
When you think about it, the entire history of the United States has happened in less than that time period. That's a pretty long time to be waiting for a book.
I like your comment Oakback, but maybe not for the reason you intended. I have always tried my best to live my life as Jesus would have approved, meaning, I never have intentionally harmed anyone, I do not intentionally lie, cheat, steal, (I say intentionally because I am not a perfect person and I have fallen to temptation at times during my 62 years), etc etc etc. And so if one uses the term "Christian" to mean someone who lives their life according to the moral teachings of Jesus, I do my best...but not because I believe Jesus was our God or Savior. I believe Jesus was an enlightened man who taught the common sense, moral way to exist with others and I believe that all mankind should try to live that way. I would do my best to live that way even if Jesus had never existed and the Bible had never been written. It is the inside of me that works that way, I guess.
But I am not a "Christian" in the technical sense because I do not believe in, nor follow, the Christian dogma and religion. I am not really sure how I feel regarding a god, or "God", or a Creator, although I tend to believe there is "something" behind all of this. Which is sort of an interesting place to be, I think. Leaving me to ponder Oakback's statement: The definition of a True Christian? It lies in the beholder and the believer.
I've said this to other "atheist"-"agnostic" friends of mine before, and I'll say it to you,
You just may be more of a "Christian", than some "Christians".
(I know, I know... some of my Christian friends may now see me as a heretic.)
you need to get beyond the literal translation of things like the Genesis accounts.....there is a universal truth in the creation stories (by the way there is more than one creation stories in Genesis) and there-in is the truth of Holy Scripture.....Dig for that universal truth if you are really interested, but don't fall captive to the literal fundamentalism.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MontanaGuy
It would also have been nice if they would have left out Genesis so we wouldn't have to be arguing with creationists about a six thousand year old earth and Noah's ark. As far as Revelations is concerned it is one very weird book. It's one of the smaller books in the Bible but it sure gets alot of attention.
It is also interesting how the Catholic Bible has 73 books, I think, including 14 chapters for the Book of Daniel while the King James Bible has 66 books and only 12 chapters for the Book of Daniel. The Eastern Orthodox Church has a broad canon of biblical books that can go up to 83 while the Ethiopian Bible has 82 books including the Book of Enoch. Was the holy spirit confused? Isn't someone somewhere either not getting all their spiritual reading material or getting more then they need to know?
AMEN! Instead of worrying about "is this inspired?" the question should be "does this work"? When that is the question, many of the "inspired books" indeed should be thrown out, Revelation first among them.
Still, I find it funny that there are all these "bible Christians" who don't get that there's is one of many bibles anyway.
Is there a point, other than that it almost didn't make it in....but it did?
Are you suggesting that it's not inspired?
The point is that they "inspired" a bunch of Roman genrty who decided what was and was not going to be in the Bible and they then ran around burning every other piece of work that they did not agree with.
The modern, Nicene bible is just the result of a bunch of Romans getting together and deciding what suited their own version of the truth best. That "inspired" bible only became the "truth" with the help of the backing of the Roman army, while those peasants who disagreed and had other, just as valid books were hunted down and killed by the same Romans who made sure that the books they liked got into the bible...some "holy spirit" at work huh?
Face it, you only follow the bible you have because it's easy to believe that which you were raised to believe and that which most of the people around you believe. Why think when the group can think for you? Why reclaim a tradtion when a tradition is at work now? Who cares if it's illogical, IT'S EASY! What is the truth? For many, the "truth" is WHAT THE MAJORITY AND TRADITION SAY IT IS, hence, being a "bible Christian" is easier than being a Gnostic or mystic Christian.
I for one prefer the books that make sense to me, and not what Constantine says makes sense, and that is the ultimate test of what is and is not INSPIRED.
I've said this to other "atheist"-"agnostic" friends of mine before, and I'll say it to you,
You just may be more of a "Christian", than some "Christians".
(I know, I know... some of my Christian friends may now see me as a heretic.)
I would agree with you about esselcue, Oakback . . . and many atheists and agnostics I have known . . . especially among the Buddhists. What I believe esselcue and others don't realize is that the inner guidance they follow IS Jesus's Holy Spirit within us all. It doesn't matter whether or not they acknowledge it consciously. It became available to us ALL upon Jesus's rebirth as Spirit. Those who follow those inner urgings are following Jesus . . . even when their "thoughts accuse or defend them."
Nice post, Victorian. Whenever I think about the wars that raged to define the religion, I can't help but think of Christ "looking down" going, "Oh...no... I didn't mean th....Now that's not at all what I said! Why are you KILLING that man? .... Oy vay. I need to get a secretary."
I'd still be interested to know what followers of Christ were supposed to follow in the centuries before the Bible was compiled.
I stood in the presence of an enlightened man once. Not to Christ's level, but pretty high. His whole being just eminated almost pure love. It almost made me cry. I could only imagine that after Christ returned from his "lost years" out east he had built this extraordinary power of full illumination that was so intoxicating and intimidating at the same time.
I like your comment Oakback, but maybe not for the reason you intended. I have always tried my best to live my life as Jesus would have approved, meaning, I never have intentionally harmed anyone, I do not intentionally lie, cheat, steal, (I say intentionally because I am not a perfect person and I have fallen to temptation at times during my 62 years), etc etc etc. And so if one uses the term "Christian" to mean someone who lives their life according to the moral teachings of Jesus, I do my best...but not because I believe Jesus was our God or Savior. I believe Jesus was an enlightened man who taught the common sense, moral way to exist with others and I believe that all mankind should try to live that way. I would do my best to live that way even if Jesus had never existed and the Bible had never been written. It is the inside of me that works that way, I guess.
But I am not a "Christian" in the technical sense because I do not believe in, nor follow, the Christian dogma and religion. I am not really sure how I feel regarding a god, or "God", or a Creator, although I tend to believe there is "something" behind all of this. Which is sort of an interesting place to be, I think. Leaving me to ponder Oakback's statement: The definition of a True Christian? It lies in the beholder and the believer.
We think alike in all that you said, but all I know about God is that God is Love, nothing else added to that. Being Love we are all saved through Grace, and we don't even have to believe in God or be good to be saved. But being loving and kind to others is good because it is the right thing to do and the loving thing to do. Not everyone is able to do what is right or even desire to do what is right, and those that try always fail. But that does not take away God's Love or Grace.
Bluefly, I have been in the presence of an almost enlightened man, and I began crying myself. I can understand why they turned Christ into a God myself. Hindus do that to almost enlightened, if not enlightened, beings all the time, and I think you already know that. The man I am speaking of though was Thich Nhat Hanh, a Buddist who had no claims of being a God or being enlightened.
One of the accepted pincipals of Biblical interpretation is that "Scripture interprets Scripture". Obscure passages on any topic must be interpreted using the clear passages on that same subject. Revelation must be interpreted in light of the clear passages concerning the last days found in Matt. and Thess. Christ was clear-"No one knows the time...." God will do what God will do when God will do it. We are to be about the job of carrying out the great commission to make disciples by Baptizing and teaching while living the great commandment to love God and our fellow man.
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As far as Revelations is concerned it is one very weird book. It's one of the smaller books in the Bible but it sure gets alot of attention.
