How do you prove you're a pastor? (quote, Jewish, Apostle)

[cg81]

Originally Posted by shawn_2828

Well, I'm not sure if you read the bible, but if you notice that when someone was called in the position of being a priest, or a leader, God called them into that position, not people putting someone there, or a person just wanting to be a pastor.

So, I think if someone is going to be a pastor then I hope that God called them into that position, because if not, then it want be good. A pastor is overseeing people's souls and that's no game. But when someone receives the calling there are schools and seminary that they can attend.

Just a comment..

Priests and leaders of the old testament were called directly of God.. but once the new testament Church was established, she was given the authority, along with the Holy Spirit's leading, to prove leaders.. and also to hold them accountable, as all members were accountable to one another and the leaders were not above it.

The pastors of today more closely mirror the "priests and leaders" of the Old Testament than what was established in the New Testament. More of a self-proving, unaccountable role.. which I'm not saying God isn't working thru, but it is not the system Christ started in the Church of the New Testament.

[Omaha Rocks]

Originally Posted by DTO Luv

I mean what does a pastor DO that actually makes them a pastor? What are they trained for and how to they verfiy whether they're doing their job or not? What are the skills they're being trained for?

Being a pastor is a paid job that apparently you need some kind of training for. What training do they specifically need and how are they measured in their performance?

The best way I can think to explain it is that if I was going to school to be a doctor I would have to study the books given to me (like the texts you mentioned above) but then I would have go and practice the medicine or surgery skills and it would be apparent right away if I was doing it right or wrong because you can measure the results of the medical work being done.

So what does a pastor practice on? So far it's pretty vague as to what they have to do to actually be considered effective and from a lot of the responses I've got here it's just based on feelings and character recomendations of friends. That doesn't seem like a good standard.

Thanks for the clarification. From what I've seen, experienced and come to understand...

- Pastors do a lot of studying and teaching - specifically in Bible classes & Bible-related courses. A lot of pastors do a lot of teaching in the areas of personal finance, etc.

- Pastors have to be able to preach, or speak publicly, in a way that is understandable, relevant and accurate. From what I've often heard, most pastors spend about 10 hours preparing each sermon.

- Pastors do an enormous amount of counseling - both marriage counseling and pre-marital counseling, grief counseling, family therapy, as well as a lot of individual sorts of things. The means by which you can gauge the effectiveness of his counseling is fairly straightforward: Is he helping people?

- Pastors spend a lot of time in hospitals with patients and their families. They also spend a lot of time in nursing homes.

- Pastors spend a lot of time in oversight, organization and administration. Some are the administrators of schools their churches run.


I don't know if that's what you're looking for, but hopefully it's a start.

[DTO Luv]

Reverend-

So you are a lay person that's a pastor, BUT you're expected to do the same job as someone who's had seminary training and studied multiple scriptures?

It sounds to me like if you were in any other proffession that you would be a charlatin and without a client base. You have no training so what makes you qualified to lead people spiritually?

[DTO Luv]

Originally Posted by Omaha Rocks

Thanks for the clarification. From what I've seen, experienced and come to understand...

- Pastors do a lot of studying and teaching - specifically in Bible classes & Bible-related courses. A lot of pastors do a lot of teaching in the areas of personal finance, etc.

- Pastors have to be able to preach, or speak publicly, in a way that is understandable, relevant and accurate. From what I've often heard, most pastors spend about 10 hours preparing each sermon.

- Pastors do an enormous amount of counseling - both marriage counseling and pre-marital counseling, grief counseling, family therapy, as well as a lot of individual sorts of things. The means by which you can gauge the effectiveness of his counseling is fairly straightforward: Is he helping people?

- Pastors spend a lot of time in hospitals with patients and their families. They also spend a lot of time in nursing homes.

- Pastors spend a lot of time in oversight, organization and administration. Some are the administrators of schools their churches run.


I don't know if that's what you're looking for, but hopefully it's a start.

That's a start.

Out of all of the things you've said, only one requires special training and that would be in regards to counseling. I know there are pastors out there "counseling" people that have no businesses doing it and I'm very opposed to and skeptical of faith based counseling.

To me it seems like everything a pastor does is something anyone of the street can do, but it's a position that holds a lot of power and is easy to abuse without oversight.

The other problem I have is if you have someone that's actually studied all of these books and scriptures, that the studying is fundamentally flawed from the beginning. You're studying and looking for answers in books that are ultimately only understood through open ended interpretations. Many people read the same bible and come to different understandings. Some vary in small degrees and others couldn't be further apart, even though it's from the same book.

So with no concrete way to prove that what you're studying is usefull when the work a pastor is trying to do can be done by anyone, how can you take the whole thing seriously?

[Huckleberry3911948]

credentials are only 1/2. the other 1/2 is behavior.
many fall short.

[denverian]

Originally Posted by DTO Luv

But what do they learn? My brother has been in what sounds like something similiar and as far as I can tell it's just tought by some guy at his church. As far as I can tell he just reads a bunch of stuff and helps out around the church. I can't read a book on rockets and then just expect to be the head of NASA.

I believe getting a degree in Theology and then internship pastoring is the usual route, which is the equivalent to at least a Masters degree, and then there is also a Doctorate of Theology. That would be the legitimate road to take, as opposed to a 5 min. online certificate. Or my parent's pastor of a Megachurch who only has a GED and an honorary doctorate from Oral Roberts Univ. Supposedly he's now working on his bachelor's in Theology after being called out by local media for calling himself a "Dr" with an honorary degree. This, after he's already "preached" for years, built up a huge warehouse church of suckers, and raked in millions.

[Reverend1111]

Originally Posted by DTO Luv

Reverend-

So you are a lay person that's a pastor, BUT you're expected to do the same job as someone who's had seminary training and studied multiple scriptures?

It sounds to me like if you were in any other proffession that you would be a charlatin and without a client base. You have no training so what makes you qualified to lead people spiritually?

No, I'm a pastor working for free. And I have been through the training that is required for my church. I choose to not have a client base because then that would limit my teachings. I want all to come to me when they need it and not when I schedule it.
I teach to all who are in need and not a select few. I don't charge for anything because getting into heven is free and God would not charge for a soul to get back to Him. I have a normal job I do everyday so I have a steady income.

[mzjamiedawn]

Originally Posted by DTO Luv

So the legal part doesn't really mean anything you just have to seem like you're a good enough person? Hell I wish I could be a CEO because my friends can all vouch for me and I seem like I'd be good at it. That's nonsense. It all seems pretty baseless to me. If a guy has a crappy marriage but seems like he does and his friends agree that everything is ok, than it's ok for him to tell people about their marriages?

This is pretty eye opening. People will follow people based on nothing than a feeling. What other person would keep their job if they had no qualifactions or proof that they could do that job?

I've got to take L.R. Hubbard's advice and start my own religion.

Originally Posted by DTO Luv

It sounds to me like you don't need to prove anything to be a pastor. You have no training other than reading books and hoping that you're interpreting it right with no measurable way of how effective you are as a pastor.

Originally Posted by DTO Luv

So what practice do you get from reading and studying books? When it comes to being a pastor where is the practice?

I showed you what must be studied to become a preacher in the church of Christ. You ignored it. As for the practice, they're taught that in school too, and go around visiting different congregations to "practice" on.

[Omaha Rocks]

Originally Posted by DTO Luv

That's a start.

Out of all of the things you've said, only one requires special training and that would be in regards to counseling. I know there are pastors out there "counseling" people that have no businesses doing it and I'm very opposed to and skeptical of faith based counseling.

To me it seems like everything a pastor does is something anyone of the street can do, but it's a position that holds a lot of power and is easy to abuse without oversight.

The other problem I have is if you have someone that's actually studied all of these books and scriptures, that the studying is fundamentally flawed from the beginning. You're studying and looking for answers in books that are ultimately only understood through open ended interpretations. Many people read the same bible and come to different understandings. Some vary in small degrees and others couldn't be further apart, even though it's from the same book.

So with no concrete way to prove that what you're studying is usefull when the work a pastor is trying to do can be done by anyone, how can you take the whole thing seriously?

Honestly, DTO, I think you've already decided the answers to all of your questions. And you've done so repeatedly, so I'm not sure there's much point in spending much time in this conversation. It seems that you've just decided everything faith-related is bunk, and you're disregarding all of it. And while you're certainly free to make that choice, you need to be honest with yourself - and others - about having made it.


That said...

You are making an assumption that all study of Scripture is "fundamentally flawed from the beginning." On what basis do you make that charge? On what, besides your own opinion, do you base that claim?

Also, what things is a pastor doing that "anybody on the street can do?"

Regarding counseling: ALL counseling is - on one level - "faith-based" counseling. All of it. But I want to ask you several things.

Are you aware of the fact that there are a lot of pastors who have advanced degrees in family therapy and/or counseling? And these are accredited degrees from accredited colleges/universities... Are you aware of that?

Are you also aware that there are MANY people working in Family Services fields that have only 1-2 years of "social work" training, yet they have the authority of the law behind them? Are you aware of that?

So please answer this question: Who is apt to be more helpful in a counseling setting? A 50-year old pastor, who has an advanced degree (possibly even a Doctorate) in counseling & family therapy, as well as 20 years of experience - or a 25 year old guy/gal with 1-year of social work instruction and 1-2 years of experience?

If my kids need to talk to somebody, there is NO QUESTION which of those two "professionals" I'd send them to!

How about you?

[Omaha Rocks]

Originally Posted by Reverend1111

No, I'm a pastor working for free. And I have been through the training that is required for my church. I choose to not have a client base because then that would limit my teachings. I want all to come to me when they need it and not when I schedule it.
I teach to all who are in need and not a select few. I don't charge for anything because getting into heven is free and God would not charge for a soul to get back to Him. I have a normal job I do everyday so I have a steady income.

I can respect that - even though I might not agree 100% with everything you say.

But here's the beauty I see in what you're saying/doing: You're not charging anybody for anything, nor are you forcing anybody to listen to you or accept what you're saying.

As I see it, if DTO Luv wanted to listen to everything you're saying, he's free to do that. If he wants to walk away and not listen to one word, he's free to do that too.

So where's the problem?