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Old 03-30-2009, 12:13 AM
 
Location: just wandering around
8,295 posts, read 8,198,265 times
Reputation: 3526

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Quote:
Originally Posted by domergurl View Post
And to those who feel that our country is on a moral decline, get a life.
Yes. Maybe they want us to go back to public hangings or when men & women were burned at the stake. IIRC the good people of Salem held prayer services to stop the evil forces and then hanged and drowned over 20 of their neighbors.
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Old 03-30-2009, 06:46 AM
 
Location: Louisville KY Metro area
4,817 posts, read 8,307,371 times
Reputation: 1959
I'd like to ask a simple question. Who taught you who hate my premise all that you obviously don't know? In other words, not one person who as responded negatively towards the OP or my responses has read my words. You have reacted with anger, but certainly there has been no knowledge of facts in those responses.

Throughout history, especially in faiths where the hierarchy flowed down, i.e. Catholicism, Muslim, Greek Orthodox, and many Protestant denominations, including Episcopalian and Presbyterian (the very name means governed by elders), power of the people became more important than the Power of God. The behaviors at Salem were a terrible hiccup caused by fear. The issues of N. Ireland were not so church as they were hatred of a King hiding behind religion.

I can assure you that if you know my faith (back to the OP), you will not find the issues that you write with such fear. So what is my faith, just pick up a Holy Bible. Just study the history written in the Old Testament and follow it with the promise of the New Testament. I won't interpret it for you because that would cloud your understandings with mine, and folks that is why I discuss my personal faith, because mine is mine, not yours and yours is yours, not mine.
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Old 03-30-2009, 06:51 AM
 
Location: Turn Left at Greenland
17,609 posts, read 25,321,845 times
Reputation: 7521
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomocox View Post
I'd like to ask a simple question. Who taught you who hate my premise all that you obviously don't know? In other words, not one person who as responded negatively towards the OP or my responses has read my words. You have reacted with anger, but certainly there has been no knowledge of facts in those responses.

Throughout history, especially in faiths where the hierarchy flowed down, i.e. Catholicism, Muslim, Greek Orthodox, and many Protestant denominations, including Episcopalian and Presbyterian (the very name means governed by elders), power of the people became more important than the Power of God. The behaviors at Salem were a terrible hiccup caused by fear. The issues of N. Ireland were not so church as they were hatred of a King hiding behind religion.

I can assure you that if you know my faith (back to the OP), you will not find the issues that you write with such fear. So what is my faith, just pick up a Holy Bible. Just study the history written in the Old Testament and follow it with the promise of the New Testament. I won't interpret it for you because that would cloud your understandings with mine, and folks that is why I discuss my personal faith, because mine is mine, not yours and yours is yours, not mine.

You are wondering how anyone can be as happy as you because you choose to spend your sunday mornings in a church ... here's my question:

why do you care and what makes you think that some of us can't find peace and happiness in other places than sitting on our fannies in a church on Sundays? It is possible you know? Your bliss isn't everyone else's.

Go to church, cool! But it's not where everyone finds happiness.
__________________
If there won't be dancing at the revolution, I'm not coming.
Emma Goldman
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Old 03-30-2009, 07:19 AM
 
Location: In an alternate universe according to some, AKA Aspergers
10,783 posts, read 11,983,487 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tomocox View Post
Jimj... I have no quota. I am not a member of such a denomination or religious group. I don't play golf, either.

What I am is quite simply a fellow who has watched our nation plunge into a place where integrity is no longer important, where the law is expected to keep us in check rather than our personal responsibility towards one another, and quite frankly a nation of skeptics. You are now obviously one as you are skeptical of my intentions.

If I remember the drill, I bet the first time you smoked a joint, drank a beer, or ate a stolen doughnut, someone who liked it wanted to share their stuff with you. I like the faith I found nearly 50 years ago. I now wish I had shared it more often.
I am a skeptic because of my experiences with so-called "christians". I've found those that pound the bible the hardest and proclaim "I'm a christian" loudly usually mean I'd better check my wallet and make sure it's still there.
Without exception every time I've run into them they've either attempted to scam me, sell me some defective item or in one case convince me the business they were trying to sell was a good one (after they cooked the books and looted it) but they all sure went to church on Sunday and Wed!

Now we know several christian people who quietly go about their faith, don't try and convert everyone they meet and live what they beleive instead of trying to make us beleive and I respect them highly and know they are really honest good people.
The bottom line to me is the louder you shout the faster I move away.
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Old 03-30-2009, 07:28 AM
 
Location: The Silver State (from the UK)
3,669 posts, read 4,316,735 times
Reputation: 2281
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomocox View Post

I can assure you that if you know my faith (back to the OP), you will not find the issues that you write with such fear. So what is my faith, just pick up a Holy Bible. Just study the history written in the Old Testament and follow it with the promise of the New Testament. I won't interpret it for you because that would cloud your understandings with mine, and folks that is why I discuss my personal faith, because mine is mine, not yours and yours is yours, not mine.


The truth is that I don't care about your faith. Its a personal thing and its totally up to you.. thats fine, and I'm sure you are a good caring person. BUT, for me the bible is full of inaccurate history, and wishfully thought out nonsense. I get my enjoyment from reading literature, current affairs, and progressive ideologies and philosophies.

The result or pleasure that you 'personally' get from religion, is achieved through other things for other people. The difference is that you imply without your personal belief system society has declined morally and/or ethically and will continue to do so. This is complete rubbish.

If you want to believe in God, then thats great, and you are free to do so. But to me, your faith is based on fabricated and inaccurate history that has encouraged and contributed to a decline in education, jeapordizes the lives of millions in third world countries, and offers false hope over a thirst for knowledge. So please, unless you wish for more responses like this one, keep it to yourself.
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Old 03-30-2009, 07:42 AM
 
Location: Londonderry, NH
33,875 posts, read 29,442,596 times
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I can understand the comfort provided by a group activity such as meeting in a congregation for communal worship. Humans, most of them anyway, are the ultimate pack animal and group activities can be very satisfying almost no matter what the group is doing.

I really do not like large groups and, as an agnostic, do not, except for a year communing with the Norse Gods of Old, do not attend church. My "worship" amounts to thanking the universe for allowing me to exist and to study that universe. My ethics are to "Do unto others that which I would want them to do unto me" and "do as little damage as possible".

I have no patience with proselytizers, do not suffer fools gladly and despise the hypocrites that proclaim their holiness while grubbing for Mammon.
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Old 03-30-2009, 10:04 AM
 
9,999 posts, read 8,996,595 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by idahogie View Post
I read a book called "Lame Deer, Seeker of Visions" one time. It was the autobiography of an Oglala Sioux Medicine Man. When he was a teen, 13 or 14, he was expected to go through a ceremony - I forget what it was called - but it was a coming-of-age sort of thing. The elders placed him alone in a closed cave for three days with no food. They gave him tobacco - his first experience with that drug.

So what happened to Lame Deer as he experienced three days of sensory deprivation and hallucinatory drugs? Did he see Jesus? Or Allah? Or the Hindu panteon? Or Moroni?

Nope. He saw his ancestors returning to him in the shape of animals.

In other words, he saw exactly what he'd been told he would see over years of indoctrination into the mystical beliefs of the Sioux.

That's the essence of religious belief - if you want to see evidence for your faith, you will. It's easy. It's also false.

I prefer reality.
You are confusing the symbols and images for the underlying reality.

I have had meditative experiences with others through which we saw the same things at the same time. Then one would see, for example, an image from Hinduism while the other might see an image from Christianity.

We would both "hear" a voice in our heads saying "it does not matter". Of course we're given images from the cultures which we know. If we weren't, then the fundamentalists would be right that there is only one true way and we better kill off any who follow another path.

You're judging something you don't yet fully understand.

That said - on the larger topic - I'd much rather spend a Sunday morning in the woods or on an empty beach than in a church.
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Old 03-30-2009, 11:09 AM
 
Location: In an alternate universe according to some, AKA Aspergers
10,783 posts, read 11,983,487 times
Reputation: 5437
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluefly View Post
That said - on the larger topic - I'd much rather spend a Sunday morning in the woods or on an empty beach than in a church.
And pay someone to be there to boot!
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Old 03-30-2009, 12:30 PM
 
Location: Up in the air
19,126 posts, read 15,277,447 times
Reputation: 15790
Well... Sunday morning at 8:45 I was nearly done with my trail ride on my horse. We went up into the mountains above the pacific ocean and I was able to see for miles and miles. I then went home and did some gardening as I had to plant some more tomato seedlings (well, I'd hardly call them seedlings since they're nearly 6" tall now ), planted some begonias and cleaned the house. Then, me and the boyfriend went to the top of Valencia Peak and walked through the Elfin Forest with our dog. Later on, I attended a 4H meeting where I taught 13 kids how to show rabbits and chickens as a 'guest speaker'.


All this while many people were sitting in church listening to someone tell them how they should act, how they should speak and how they should live their life.... all while I was out actually living mine.
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Old 03-30-2009, 01:20 PM
 
Location: um....guess
10,483 posts, read 9,717,794 times
Reputation: 1794
Quote:
Originally Posted by JTraik View Post
Then stay tuned, you'll probably learn something.
Like what, that religion is a total crock? That it's a wonderful way for people to justify their behavior?
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